Then how does humanity grow? Georgiou was not raised with even a choice of being a good person. She never knew. And when presented with the possibility she demonstrated change. She became better. That's the essence of Trek.
Section 31: I hope it still happens.
- Thread starter FredH
- Start date
So anyone who grew up in a bad situation should be absolved of any crimes they commit?
I never saw any real change, she was just playing the cards she was dealt in order to survive.
Absolved? No. Given the opportunity to demonstrate that they are better, and contribute to society? Yes. Rehabilitation and recovery are possible.
Then that's you. Agree to disagree, YMMV, etc, etc.
I don't see how punishing Georgiou really serves any purpose. She's already turned her back on her previous life, no one she hurt would ever know about it. They'd just be locking away someone who is presumably going to work to benefit society from now on.
Then why should any accused murderer ever face trial? The people they are accused of murdering will never know if they were punished or not...
Most accused murderers are at least in the same time and universe as the society their crimes affected (and all the evidence that would be used to convict them). The trial of an accused murderer would be necessary to determine if they actually did commit a crime, their sentence would show the public the consequences of their actions to discourage others from committing a similar crime.
But we're in no danger of people seeing Georgiou go free and thinking 'wow, if there's no punishment for being an evil dictator I might as well go make my own empire'. Plus we already know that she did what she did, even though no one can prove it, and she's already been rehabilitated.
But we're in no danger of people seeing Georgiou go free and thinking 'wow, if there's no punishment for being an evil dictator I might as well go make my own empire'. Plus we already know that she did what she did, even though no one can prove it, and she's already been rehabilitated.
Would Federation laws even apply to her? She's not a Federation citizen, and she committed those crimes in a completely different universe. Do they even have any evidence other than whomever on the Discovery witnessed her bombing the rebel planet?
What she did was wrong, but it's a legal grey area.
What she did was wrong, but it's a legal grey area.
Sorry but this is ridiculous. She was evil in a parallel universe where all humans were either comic book evil, or killed for not being evil enough. Evil was the selected trait for success in that culture. Her crimes were not crimes in her universe and were not committed against anyone in the prime universe. How could any legitimate organization charge her? What would you charge her with? What evidence would you present in your case?
She was from a universe where Zephram Cochrane killed the Vulcans during first contact. Everyone was a Hitler. The whole point of her redemption is that you cannot judge someone's actions in their culture if you are from another culture. They found a way to let her find her place in the prime universe while keeping an eye on her and with her time in a completely different culture, she started to take on some traits from it.
Billions, Bill. Billions.
How did she redeem herself? To whom? When did this Star Trek: Breaking Good take place? The only redemption I observed was she stopped her genocidal activities. To be fair, so did the Nazis after they were arrested and put on trial in Nuremberg.
She crossed over, Starfleet didn't know what to do with her until they needed to launch a genocidal mission of their own. Then she was absorbed into the very killy dark ops side of SF, before being catapulted to the 32nd century. Finally, she realised there was a better way in the Guardian of Forever alternate reality / simulation. Deep stuff - redemption, baby!
Yes, actually. An interesting and enjoyable arc about a human being becoming better. Dare I say, evolving, even. I know, it's crazy talk for a human to evolve.
Personally, I am a sucker for a good redemption story. It's why I watched Xena and Angel and Firefly. If beings as EVIL as Xena and Angelus (and as cynical and hard as Mal Reynolds) can change and grow, maybe the rest of us can too.
Maybe it's my Catholic upbringing. I was taught that anything can be forgiven by God and anyone can be redeemed if they truly want to change.
Maybe it's my Catholic upbringing. I was taught that anything can be forgiven by God and anyone can be redeemed if they truly want to change.
I think the reason many people are okay with it, is because we're eighty years past World War II and the carnage wrought by Hitler. Many only vaguely know about it because of a few pages of history they slept through during high school.
Go back and look at some of the imagery and tell me there should be a redemption story for anyone involved...
She's not literally Hitler!
We got a character that was closer to Hitler on Deep Space Nine with Dukat and he steered away from any redemption arc hard. Because he was a terrible person. Georgiou didn't.
We got a character that was closer to Hitler on Deep Space Nine with Dukat and he steered away from any redemption arc hard. Because he was a terrible person. Georgiou didn't.
I am fully aware of what Hitler did. Georgiou, though, did not exist with the same moral world.
Hitler didn't exist in the same moral world as you, either. He grew up in a world where Jewish people were, at best, frowned upon. So we should give him a pass for the seven million dead?
The whole Georgiou thing is actually sickening to me and it spits on the graves of all those that suffered and lost their lives living under monsters "who didn't know any better"...
I know the moral world enough. I know they know better. I know the moral standards that existed in the world at the time, and the possibility for them to learn from those mistakes. The Mirror Universe is not the same world. Georgiou was not given the opportunity for choice.
It's not a literal 1:1 situation.
Every one has a choice, it has even been shown in the Mirror Universe that people have choices and that people know right from wrong. The Halkans somehow knew right from wrong in the Mirror Universe when they were willing to let their culture die rather than see the Empire use their dilithium for destructive purposes.
It is exceptionally disappointing to see Star Trek fans of all people lap this kind of non-sense up. In a supposed universe where life and self-determination seem to be the greatest value there is, they have jumped in bed with a fictional character who deprived millions or billions of that life and self-determination.
Have at it. We reap what we sow.
I suppose you could make the same argument that the Prime Directive is morally repugnant. They stand back, literally willing to let entire civilizations perish because it's "the natural order of things." Are the Federation not depriving millions, or perhaps billions of people the chance at life and self-determination simply because they feel they aren't advanced enough?
Many have, including me.
Though that interpretation of the Prime Directive was a creation of TNG and later shows. In TOS, we see the Enterprise on missions to save less advanced people multiple times.
