Yeah, it's painful to watch.
So about how many Jedi were around during the OT?
- Thread starter Morpheus 02
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I feel sorry for Mace Windu in his battle with Palpatine but...yeah, you guys had so many chances to find out that the puppet master of both the Separatist movement and the Clone Wars was in an office not far from the Jedi Temple but you never connected the dots. You may have meant well but you got cocky and far too smug about your control over events.
And in the end you unknowingly dug your own graves.
And in the end you unknowingly dug your own graves.
Yoda sensed something awry about Palpatine in AOTC but didn't make the connection until a few years later.
The Jedi masters even realized that their "ability to use The Force has diminished." But they wanted to keep up appearances instead of admitting that something was amiss. Well, Mace thought they should tell the Senate, but Yoda thought they should keep it to themselves, so multiply their adversaries would not.
Kor
Kor
They also labored under the idea that if the Sith returned they would know it.
Hubris. As someone from another franchise would so vocally put it.
There was also the Sith shrine hidden beneath the temple which was slowly blinding them to the dark side. A fact they were increasingly aware of (though not it's cause) even before the outbreak of war, and they were afraid to admit it to the Chancellor (ironically).
Think of it in terms of the old "boiled frog" parable. For a thousand years every Jedi that ever lived spent most of their formative years at the temple, right above a font for dark side malevolence. At first nobody noticed because it was sealed and forgotten. But century by century, it's influence grew stronger, slowly, subtly. Desensitising one generation after another to it's presence until they were all but blind to it.
Hypothetically speaking, if there were some other parallel Jedi Order with a temple isolated somewhere else in the galaxy, and one of them came to visit the Coruscant temple for the first time, they'd likely recoil at the sheer malevolence radiating from those ancient stones, and horrified at all the Jedi wandering around totally oblivious.
Think of it in terms of the old "boiled frog" parable. For a thousand years every Jedi that ever lived spent most of their formative years at the temple, right above a font for dark side malevolence. At first nobody noticed because it was sealed and forgotten. But century by century, it's influence grew stronger, slowly, subtly. Desensitising one generation after another to it's presence until they were all but blind to it.
Hypothetically speaking, if there were some other parallel Jedi Order with a temple isolated somewhere else in the galaxy, and one of them came to visit the Coruscant temple for the first time, they'd likely recoil at the sheer malevolence radiating from those ancient stones, and horrified at all the Jedi wandering around totally oblivious.
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Vader would have been of an interest to kill as many able bodied Jedi as he could find, so that his boyfriend didn't replace him.
Wasn't the Shrine in the Depths only seen in Into The Dark and Tarkin? Now I haven't read Tarkin, but is it openly stated that the shrine was corrupting them? I'm not much fond of that, though I'm quite fascinated with any role it played, it was quite the creepy place in Into The Dark. And to think what it took place above it in ROTS. I hope we get to see the shrine and get flash forwards about that.
Their diminished ability to use the Force sounded sounded like something not completely dissimilar to
The Great Leveler's effect on the Jedi
We have seen it already, twice! Here, and here. And from what I gather, it wasn't corrupting the Jedi so much as blinding them. Remember the boiled frog analogy? They've been surrounded by the Dark Side's presence for so long without realising it, they've been almost utterly desensitised to it. It's why they couldn't sense Palpatine when he was sat right in front of them, or at least they couldn't pinpoint the source. It was always "elsewhere . . . elusive".
There's no one source for this though. It's been hinted and inferred in various places over the years (in universe and out). IIRC one of the unfinished Ahsoka arcs would have dealt with it more directly, even going into the depths of the ancient temple beneath.
I'm not up to date of Fallen Star or the comics yet, so I have no idea if the Leveller plays any part in this. Honestly I doubt it. That thing's MO is scaring the shit out of people and turning them to stone.
Besides, the shrine is ancient. It's been down there since at least the time of Darth Bane, probably longer. Indeed the idea Lucas had was that the site of the Jedi Temple had been the site of many temples to the force over the eons as the site itself is the location of a vergence or nexus in the force.
Just like how in real life (especially around here) you get churches that were built on pagan holy sites, some of them still within henges and built using the remains of the old megaliths. And more often than not, those weren't even the first group of pagans to inhabit the site.
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I'd watch it.
How was their prognostication being blocked?
Palpatine did it himself.
Palpatine had a friend follow and blockout each Jedi.
Palpatine was using Technology .
The death star blowing up planets down the line was causing temporal turbulence.
The deaths of 20 thousand Jedi in one day was causing temporal turbulence.
Palpatine did it himself.
Palpatine had a friend follow and blockout each Jedi.
Palpatine was using Technology .
The death star blowing up planets down the line was causing temporal turbulence.
The deaths of 20 thousand Jedi in one day was causing temporal turbulence.
Palpatine sent a message back in time, asking for a specific block of years to be cloudy, or the Sith in the past picked one decade of total victory, that any Sith who might still be around 5000 years later, is all too welcome to take advantage of?
That's what happens at the end, but it's not the whole of it.
Udi Dis, less trained in using it than the Jedi, felt the Force missing and not being able to sense anything with it as they approached the Leveller's shrine. That was before he lost orientation and senses. It should be presumed the Jedi who fought the Nihil at Grizal experienced the same, even if the text only mentions them losing the sense of where they are.
The Force connection missing is the part that felt similar.
The Force connection missing is the part that felt similar.
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The timescale there is too short. Like I said, it's ancient. A thousand years at the very least. Indeed it's so far down that it may predate *all* Jedi presence at that location. We know the Coruscant temple wasn't the first, and that there were other prominent ones in antiquity even after Ahch-to; Ossus, Tython, Ilum, Jedha, etc.
Maybe at the time of the Sith schism the Jedi didn't even have a presence on Coruscant at all and it was some other now extinct force using/worshiping group that occupied it. Then when the Sith conquered the planet, they recognised the power of the place (indeed, it may have been the whole point of the invasion in the first place), wiped out the monks or priests or whoever was there, and built their own place of power over it. Eventually Jedi and/or the Old Republic forces took back the planet. Cleansing the site and building a temple to watch over it (like the one that showed up in 'Resistance'.) At some point later, perhaps centuries later when Ossus had fallen and Tython was lost to them, the bulk of the order moved to Coruscant, expanding the temple as the massive city levels rose around it. Then came Darth Bane's empire and the fall of the Old Republic, and the temple was sacked (bye bye Darksaber), which is probably where knowledge of the shrine was lost with the burning of library (there's always a burning library when these thing happen.) Eventually Bane is defeated, Coruscant is again liberated, the ruined Jedi Temple rebuilt and the Jedi go on blissfully unaware they've set up shop right over a time bomb.
And it's not the Sith actively setting it up to "do" anything, it just is. The Jedi knew it was down there once, but they thought it had been nullified and capped. So they just built over it, and over time (possibly thousands of years), forgot about it. The Sith are certainly aware of it (though when is an open question), have certainly taken full advantage of it, and may have even given it a nudge or two over the generations, but there's no way to think this is all part of some elaborate millennia long plot.
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