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Spoilers The Expanse Season 6

I'm glad they didn't try to rush the Laconia story. There are three whole-ass books about that which could make for another show, or some movies at least. I'd prefer a show.

I wish there was a reason for it though. It just felt really disconnected to what was going on with the rest of the show that they should have just not dealt with it. I think the only thing that connected the two plots was when Inaros was talking to that guy (I think it was cortizar) but it really didn't have anything to do with the family.
 
That was excellent, and I thought it hung together really well given it was obviously a little rushed. Genuinely thought Filip was a gonner!
 
I don't understand why no one has ever pointed this out. "Do you know that Marcos almost carried out a genocide / biocide yes? Can we say we are even now?"
I can't really think of a good way to bring up "Marco has killed more Inners in the last year than Belters have ever lived" that won't make things worse.
 
I can't really think of a good way to bring up "Marco has killed more Inners in the last year than Belters have ever lived" that won't make things worse.
We are talking about non-comparable orders of magnitude. And Marco almost destroyed the biosphere. Whatever the Inners may have done pales in the face of his actions. Incidentally, every single Belter whom we saw felt at least a malign satisfaction in the face of what had happened to Earth. It would be to say that all Middle Easterners rejoiced for 9/11. Even Drummer joined forces with the Inners only because she hated Marco more.
 
By a similar token though, one can't say the Inners' multi-generational oppression and exploitation (bordering on ethnic slavery) of Belters is somehow retroactively justified or in any way "not so bad", because the person those actions produced caused a larger number of corpses. Justice and morality aren't zero sum games.
Drummer and Holden were right; someone like Marco was inevitable and Earth as a political entity cannot rightly claim a lack or responsibility in what happened. They created their own devil in Marco.

That's part of what makes 'The Expanse' as an IP so compelling though; just like in actual real world history there are no true cut and dry "good guys" and "bad guys". There are good people and bad people, sure, but that doesn't apply to the massive sea of humanity and the factions it always divides itself into.
 
We are talking about non-comparable orders of magnitude. And Marco almost destroyed the biosphere. Whatever the Inners may have done pales in the face of his actions. Incidentally, every single Belter whom we saw felt at least a malign satisfaction in the face of what had happened to Earth. It would be to say that all Middle Easterners rejoiced for 9/11. Even Drummer joined forces with the Inners only because she hated Marco more.

To borrow a quote from Daredevil, another man's evil doesn't make you good. That Marco Inaros is an extra-special helping of capital E Evil doesn't in any way mitigate or excuse a century plus of oppression. It's also not fair to lump all Belters in with his crimes, even those who may have celebrated in the moment. Some, like Tadeo or Filip, will have found that the circumstances around them have changed so much that that celebration haunts them.

Belters have died in huge numbers. They've been systematically oppressed, so even the ones who haven't died have faced hardship, prejudice and violence. Avasarala is a torturer. She treated Belters with brutality, for no better reason than because she could and it was expedient.

Hell, the Ring Gate itself is the result of the apocalypse on Eros, which claimed still more Belter lives in service to an Inner's (Jules-Pierre Mao in this case) whims.

Nobody is a saint here. Everybody is in the wrong. But if SOMEBODY doesn't let it go and try to move forward past it then all we do is create bigger Marcos.
 
Xerxes82

Absolutely true that no side is innocent on the show, but there are several key point that I thank we really don't get addressed well.

Marco is a faction leader in the Belt, so in Belter terms he is a legitimate political leader. Even if Earth and Mars wouldn't recognize it. Jules Pierre Mao is a private citizen (though one with exceptional power and means) and his actions had no backing by any government (even if he had a high ranking Earth official in his pocket). So right there is a significant difference between these two men. Now you could certainly argue that both men did what they did for what they believed to be legitimate reason.

But magnitude does matter. Eros easily the single largest horrific act by Mao, killed 200,000 Belters. The Belter population is between 50 - 150 million (Belters believe the larger number is accurate so I am going to use that). That means Mao in one horrific act killed 1/750th of the Belt. His actions while utterly horrific (Dr. Mengele would have loved it, its that sick) weren't ever designed to annihilate Belters as a society. Not even remotely close to it (It's far more statistically close to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in relation to the population of Japan). Now Mao was 100% successful in his plan for Eros. Marco attack on Earth (he also attacked Mars but we have almost no details on the damage there so not touching it), was not a success, his failure cause enough immediate death certainly tens of millions, and shortly hundreds of millions. This caused most of the Belt to jump to his cause, some grudgingly, but many of the factions eagerly. The ramifications of his attacks compounded by more and more attacks will end up killing roughly a 1/3 to 1/2 of the population on Earth. So between 10 and 15 billion. Thats magnitudes more people then have ever lived in the Belt. I firmly believe not only your actions but the intent you have in those actions are important. Mao's intent is to use 200,000 Belters as a medical experiment of lethal nature, but his intent wasn't to kill the Belt. Marcos intent is to kill the Earth, there is a difference.

Most of the hardship that Belters live by and see as only a Belter thing, also exists on Earth and in huge numbers. Lack of proper medical care, lack of jobs, lack of enough food, lack of clean water, lack of ability to influence change in the society. They do have free air. In fact most Belters I would assume were people who left Earth hoping to make a better life for themselves (see the US's California and Alaskan Gold Rushes, the rush to develop the west, ect).

Most of the oppression in the Belt isn't from Earth Government or Martian Government (there is some), but from the various Corporations that uses the resources of the Belt. Some have government contracts, but they aren't run by the government.

Yet almost all the hatred is directed at the governments of those two worlds. And if they hate the capitalism/ socialism mix that both use, they don't seem to try and change that model for their own practices. And in fact there are a lot of Earthers and Martians who also work and by extension live in the Belt. They do benefit from having a step up in promotions in companies, but that's the biggest perk they get.

Now Andersen Station assault in one of the biggest attacks on Belters (thousands are killed) and even then the Earth government (the Military side). Christen was surprised by this news (it predates her).So most of the oppression isn't in the form of eradication.

Now onto Drummer. Drummer states she isn't willing to agree to a position where anyone could override the vote of the Belt. I want you to really understand what that means. Originally its going to be an equal vote Mars, Earth, the Belt. Each government would have one vote. Drummer thanks that's crap. But to be in position where the Belt could never be overridden, means she wants a system where the Belt has final say. Period. On issues that aren't just Belter issues (if this was about forming a Belter government, or how they run their own government, then I could absolutely agree with Drummer. Mars and Earth mind your own damn business. But this isn't. This is an issue about the travel between gates, which is absolutely not just a Belter issue. Take the UN for example, 5 member states have veto power. But none of them have the ability to approve a measure. And as unfair as it is to have 5 out of all the countries have a veto ability, imagine how utterly unbalanced it would be if only one had the ability to approve or condemn a measure. That's what drummer is talking about.

And unlike Chrisjen (We know almost nothing about the Martian leader on the show) Drummer has only considered one Earther as someone she thanks should be treated fairly and that's Fred. There isn't an example of another. It's not Holden. Everything she has done for Holden or the Roci has been for another reason (Primarily Naomi). She's far, far, far less evolved on seeing others than Chrisjen has shown herself to become (and she's a stubborn thing certainly).

Again because this isn't a Belter business, organization or government why Holden feels it must be isn't very rational. After all does he know even one Belter who has risen in the ranks that hasn't been as bad (as the various corporations or governments that have prayed off the common worker) . They pray on their own, they use force to steal the livelihood of others, ect, ect. All the negative you thank of for big business or government. Certainly Drummer wouldn't be a rational pick. Outside of Fred she has refused to work freely or fairly with any inners. Even Holden and the Roci all her actions have been based on another reason (either self preservation or her feelings towards Naomi). And Drummer is seen by many as a puppet for the inners, so there is going to be significant Belters who don't trust her (outside of her being a pirate, and of course her long term work for Fred Johnson). Since many Martians and Earthers and Belters have worked in Space, and handled supplies or travel plans between stations, worlds, and outposts there has to be at one person who has a history of working fairly between the various races, and has some prior work history that would apply.
 
I think it's better than BSG and it was comparable to the 90s great shows like DS9 and Babylon 5 (And Farscape).
Nope, it will be remembered at least critically as better. All of the other shows were far too uneven.

3 really big issues for shows.
Production quality for its time
Acting quality of its time
writing quality of its time.

BSG solid production and acting throughout its run, can't say the same for all of its episodes.
Any Trek, solid Production through the runs, but acting (especially guests of the week and some regulars) and writing aren't consistently solid.
Babylon 5 (gets props for even attempting something never done before), but scripts, production and acting could be all over the place.
Farscape like the above not consistent in scripts or acting
 
Xerxes82

Absolutely true that no side is innocent on the show, but there are several key point that I thank we really don't get addressed well.

Marco is a faction leader in the Belt, so in Belter terms he is a legitimate political leader. Even if Earth and Mars wouldn't recognize it. Jules Pierre Mao is a private citizen (though one with exceptional power and means) and his actions had no backing by any government (even if he had a high ranking Earth official in his pocket). So right there is a significant difference between these two men. Now you could certainly argue that both men did what they did for what they believed to be legitimate reason.

But magnitude does matter. Eros easily the single largest horrific act by Mao, killed 200,000 Belters. The Belter population is between 50 - 150 million (Belters believe the larger number is accurate so I am going to use that). That means Mao in one horrific act killed 1/750th of the Belt. His actions while utterly horrific (Dr. Mengele would have loved it, its that sick) weren't ever designed to annihilate Belters as a society. Not even remotely close to it (It's far more statistically close to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in relation to the population of Japan). Now Mao was 100% successful in his plan for Eros. Marco attack on Earth (he also attacked Mars but we have almost no details on the damage there so not touching it), was not a success, his failure cause enough immediate death certainly tens of millions, and shortly hundreds of millions. This caused most of the Belt to jump to his cause, some grudgingly, but many of the factions eagerly. The ramifications of his attacks compounded by more and more attacks will end up killing roughly a 1/3 to 1/2 of the population on Earth. So between 10 and 15 billion. Thats magnitudes more people then have ever lived in the Belt. I firmly believe not only your actions but the intent you have in those actions are important. Mao's intent is to use 200,000 Belters as a medical experiment of lethal nature, but his intent wasn't to kill the Belt. Marcos intent is to kill the Earth, there is a difference.

Most of the hardship that Belters live by and see as only a Belter thing, also exists on Earth and in huge numbers. Lack of proper medical care, lack of jobs, lack of enough food, lack of clean water, lack of ability to influence change in the society. They do have free air. In fact most Belters I would assume were people who left Earth hoping to make a better life for themselves (see the US's California and Alaskan Gold Rushes, the rush to develop the west, ect).

Most of the oppression in the Belt isn't from Earth Government or Martian Government (there is some), but from the various Corporations that uses the resources of the Belt. Some have government contracts, but they aren't run by the government.

Yet almost all the hatred is directed at the governments of those two worlds. And if they hate the capitalism/ socialism mix that both use, they don't seem to try and change that model for their own practices. And in fact there are a lot of Earthers and Martians who also work and by extension live in the Belt. They do benefit from having a step up in promotions in companies, but that's the biggest perk they get.

Now Andersen Station assault in one of the biggest attacks on Belters (thousands are killed) and even then the Earth government (the Military side). Christen was surprised by this news (it predates her).So most of the oppression isn't in the form of eradication.

Now onto Drummer. Drummer states she isn't willing to agree to a position where anyone could override the vote of the Belt. I want you to really understand what that means. Originally its going to be an equal vote Mars, Earth, the Belt. Each government would have one vote. Drummer thanks that's crap. But to be in position where the Belt could never be overridden, means she wants a system where the Belt has final say. Period. On issues that aren't just Belter issues (if this was about forming a Belter government, or how they run their own government, then I could absolutely agree with Drummer. Mars and Earth mind your own damn business. But this isn't. This is an issue about the travel between gates, which is absolutely not just a Belter issue. Take the UN for example, 5 member states have veto power. But none of them have the ability to approve a measure. And as unfair as it is to have 5 out of all the countries have a veto ability, imagine how utterly unbalanced it would be if only one had the ability to approve or condemn a measure. That's what drummer is talking about.

And unlike Chrisjen (We know almost nothing about the Martian leader on the show) Drummer has only considered one Earther as someone she thanks should be treated fairly and that's Fred. There isn't an example of another. It's not Holden. Everything she has done for Holden or the Roci has been for another reason (Primarily Naomi). She's far, far, far less evolved on seeing others than Chrisjen has shown herself to become (and she's a stubborn thing certainly).

Again because this isn't a Belter business, organization or government why Holden feels it must be isn't very rational. After all does he know even one Belter who has risen in the ranks that hasn't been as bad (as the various corporations or governments that have prayed off the common worker) . They pray on their own, they use force to steal the livelihood of others, ect, ect. All the negative you thank of for big business or government. Certainly Drummer wouldn't be a rational pick. Outside of Fred she has refused to work freely or fairly with any inners. Even Holden and the Roci all her actions have been based on another reason (either self preservation or her feelings towards Naomi). And Drummer is seen by many as a puppet for the inners, so there is going to be significant Belters who don't trust her (outside of her being a pirate, and of course her long term work for Fred Johnson). Since many Martians and Earthers and Belters have worked in Space, and handled supplies or travel plans between stations, worlds, and outposts there has to be at one person who has a history of working fairly between the various races, and has some prior work history that would apply.

You can't use math to compare one atrocity to another. An atrocity is an atrocity to the people subject to it.
End of discussion.
You also can't just blame "corporations" as if the governments they are theoretically subject to have no influence over, and garner no benefits from their actions. Who do you think awarded companies like Star Helix the contract to police Ceres? Who benefited? It doesn't matter to a belter if the boot on their throat is military, government, corporate, or otherwise. The whole situation is created and maintained by the Inner powers to make sure they retain their powers and their collective wealth.

And yeah, historically most people on Earth are just as trapped as those on the belt, and that's part of the problem. Except now with the ring gates there's suddenly a massive opportunity to change that with mass colonisation efforts.
The belt saw the galaxy open up for them--a thing that was only possible due to a mass slaughter of belters, by Inners--only for the Inners to swoop in and claim it all for themselves, which in the process would leave the belt behind to starve on the fringes because they were no longer needed.
It's precisely that anxiety and the breaking of the status quo that Marco exploited, and it's entirely legitimate.

Nobody gets to play the hero or hold the moral high ground here, because neither thing exists. Indeed the constant impulse to justify and rationalise this kind of thing is precisely what perpetuates it, and how we constantly get ourselves into these situations.
 
So, will this show be remembered as one of the best sci-fi shows on par with Star Trek, Babylon 5 and BSG?
In my opinion, yes. I won't put it above DS9, but it's right up there. Expanse had a better finale than nuBSG, although I like BSG's finale better than most people. Better than B5, which I enjoyed greatly. I have been enjoying The Expanse more than my usual franchises lately too--Doctor Who and ST.

Definitely, a top tier SF series. Excellent throughout and had a completely satisfying ending.
 
I think it's better than BSG and it was comparable to the 90s great shows like DS9 and Babylon 5 (And Farscape).
90s Star Trek and BSG were way out ahead of the other sci-fi of their day and I would say the same about The Expanse.

One thing about BSG that sets it aside though is is what a massive leap it was compared to anything seen before it. The style, acting, tone just blew me away at the time. Hard to believe it was airing at the same time as Enterprise,Dune and Farscape which all look they are from another era and pretty amateur in comparison.
Personally with B5 I never got over the poor CGI and 90s softcore porn levels of acting and sets.
 
90s Star Trek and BSG were way out ahead of the other sci-fi of their day and I would say the same about The Expanse.

One thing about BSG that sets it aside though is is what a massive leap it was compared to anything seen before it. The style, acting, tone just blew me away at the time. Hard to believe it was airing at the same time as Enterprise,Dune and Farscape which all look they are from another era and pretty amateur in comparison.
Personally with B5 I never got over the poor CGI and 90s softcore porn levels of acting and sets.

Yes the acting and CGI was great on BSG. the issue I have with the series though is the plot could have been better, especially when it came to the Cylons.

I do agree that the sets on Farscape are a little dated now, but I still marvel at the puppetry. They did a great job turning Puppets into real characters.
 
They clearly needed more time to get the effects right in the finale. The average effect in this episode looked significantly worse than a modern video game rendered in real time.
 
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