I was surprised that the Kobayahi Maru actually existed, though: in TWoK I always got the impression that the transmission was a fake the Klingon fabricated to bait the ship into a trap.
Spoilers Star Trek: Prodigy 1x06 - "Kobayashi"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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I liked how the Kobayashi Maru had a TOS feel to it with orange Bussard collectors and what looked like a TOS hull aesthetic.
The writers didn’t miss that at all.
Please rewatch the end of the simulation scenes.
My favorite Prodigy episode by far. I gave it an 8 and I think that was too stingy.
The interweaving of the cameo's/callbacks with Dal's development arc and teaching Federation/leadership to all was very well done. The audio quality stuff bothered me not one whit. Nor Odo being a choice for a bridge officer (as the writer explained, he has done it many times before, is a war hero, served along starfleet personnel for years, why not?). I also liked Gates getting some love. About time. Ditto Uhura.
I agree with the earlier comment about being mad at Berman about Uhura being the only TOS bridge character to not get a callback. Agree that it was one of the biggest black marks against Berman Trek (along with ENT finale, and hot chicks in catsuits). Until now, Gates (and Will Wheaton & Whoopi) was the only TNG bridger in the same boat. Loved learning that Rene was originally going to do new lines for the episode. So sad. It probably balooned from a Rene tribute to Nimoy & Doohan as well.
And then there were the Protostar/Chakotay reveals. I did not do the math in real time, with all those TT implications. That is good stuff there. I got a feeling Gwen's dad will have a good reason for doing what he is doing.
Also some good stuff with Zero and Gwen.
That is a classic Trek episode, methinks.
The interweaving of the cameo's/callbacks with Dal's development arc and teaching Federation/leadership to all was very well done. The audio quality stuff bothered me not one whit. Nor Odo being a choice for a bridge officer (as the writer explained, he has done it many times before, is a war hero, served along starfleet personnel for years, why not?). I also liked Gates getting some love. About time. Ditto Uhura.
I agree with the earlier comment about being mad at Berman about Uhura being the only TOS bridge character to not get a callback. Agree that it was one of the biggest black marks against Berman Trek (along with ENT finale, and hot chicks in catsuits). Until now, Gates (and Will Wheaton & Whoopi) was the only TNG bridger in the same boat. Loved learning that Rene was originally going to do new lines for the episode. So sad. It probably balooned from a Rene tribute to Nimoy & Doohan as well.
And then there were the Protostar/Chakotay reveals. I did not do the math in real time, with all those TT implications. That is good stuff there. I got a feeling Gwen's dad will have a good reason for doing what he is doing.
Also some good stuff with Zero and Gwen.
That is a classic Trek episode, methinks.
plus the uniforms for Spock and Uhura were TOS not the modified TOS-like unis from Discovery.
Which gives me hope that the TOS aesthetic is still regarded by the current producers of the franchise as the official Starfleet aesthetic in the 2260s.
The lesson of the Kobayashi Maru is not to 'listen to your crew'. It's to prepare future captains for the potential scenario where no matter what choice they make, something bad will happen. The burden of failure and loss are very real things for those who make choices that will affect the lives of others.
Kirk: How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you say?
When Kirk cheated on the test, he was ridding himself of its true meaning which would leave him mentally and emotionally unprepared when he faced that scenario with Khan. Spock knew the real meaning of the test because when the Enterprise was faced with a real no-win scenario, he was able to come up with a solution when Kirk could not. And Spock's solution had nothing to do with 'listening to your crew' since he told no one what he was doing. Even when Bones told Spock that he'd die if he went into the chamber, Spock did not listen.
I think the simulation in this episode did NOT need to be the Kobayashi Maru. It could have been any kind of simulation involving a tricky scenario that was, for all intents and purposes, winnable. I would even argue that having Dal do the easiest training mission first and being unable to effectively beat it would have better sold the idea of needing to listen to your crew. The Kobayashi Maru has a very specific purpose in the lessons it tries to teach which is not what this episode was about.
Yes, that was the lesson for Dal as well. But in addition to that, he also realised he should listen to "his crew".
I disagree. The point of the test is simple, and stated summarily in the episode by the computer, it’s “a no win scenario designed to test how one reacts to a hopeless situation.” The authors got the point, they had it said on screen. The fact that Dal learned something specific about himself and his situation from the experience doesn’t demonstrate the writing had any failure to understand the point of the test.
And I think that your assertion that Spock getting the point of the test was a no-win scenario, and thus being able to come up with a solution is self contradictory. Finding a solution to a problem is not a win? The point of the Kobayashi Maru is literally to deal with an impossible situation where there is no path to victory. Spock finding a solution/path to victory isn’t the ending’s thematic connection to the Kobayashi Maru, it’s Kirk’s loss of his best friend, who despite the survival of the rest of the crew thanks to Spock, felt as though he had lost.
The test didn’t have to be the Kobayashi Maru to teach Dal about teamwork, I agree with that for sure. But that doesn’t make it incorrect that Dal gleaned that lesson when trying to beat it, because it was was what he needed to learn in the moment.
The 'solution' did not beat the 'no-win' scenario because Spock DIED. The 'No-win' scenario is not about being in a hopeless situation where all that happens is that you get blown up. As depicted in Star Trek II, choosing to rescue the Kobayashi Maru was NOT a mandatory thing you needed to do (Unlike Trek09 where the crew are ordered to rescue the ship or here where the crew will mutiny if you choose not to). Saavik 'chose' to go into the Neutral Zone and rescue the ship despite the obvious objections of the senior officers. Funny how not listening to Sulu's warnings got the entire ship destroyed with all hands, yet no one told Saavik that she should listen to her crew. Again, Those moments imply that the trainee using the simulator has the choice to not attempt a rescue and that many other trainees have picked that option many times before Saavik. That choice is still a 'no-win' since not rescuing the Kobayashi Maru means that you left 400 people to die.
And that's the purpose of the test. What do you do when every choice you make will result in a loss? Spock's sacrifice, while a solution to save the ship, still adheres to the 'no-win' scenario because there was no avoiding loss. For Kirk, this was a 'no-win' scenario for him because he did not know how to deal with Spock's death, even he himself said that dealing with death is what the test was supposed to teach you.
Fun fact. Star Trek II, the film that introduced the Kobayashi Maru into Trek lore and was a major part of it's overall theme also features a moment where Kirk needed to overcome his inability to listen to his crew.
Saavik: Sir, may I quote general order 12: On the approach of any vessel when communication has not been established-
Spock: Lieutenant, the admiral is well aware of the regulations.
Saavik: ...Aye sir.
*The vessel attacks the Enterprise and the ship suffers casualties*
Kirk: Mr. Saavik, you go right on quoting regulations.
And I'm willing to bet that if any Prodigy character dies and Dal has to endure the loss of that character, the Kobayahi Maru won't even be mentioned once.Spock: Lieutenant, the admiral is well aware of the regulations.
Saavik: ...Aye sir.
*The vessel attacks the Enterprise and the ship suffers casualties*
Kirk: Mr. Saavik, you go right on quoting regulations.
I stand by what I said before: the writers of this episode clearly understood the point of the Kobayashi Maru, and I don’t see a thing in the above post that proves they did not.
And in addition to some characters refusing the order to abandon the Kobayashi Maru, in the same sequence Odo questions the order when Dal changes his order. The only constant in the simulation to me seems to be apparent in its premise: it’s an unwinnable scenario. That’s it, no matter if they take the advice of the other crew or not, they can’t win it, period. And again, Dal gaining an additional lesson doesn’t diminish or undermine the main point of the excercise.
That could very well be the case. And if you’re proven correct, that still doesn’t demonstrate any lack of understanding of the point of the test on the part of the writers.
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Great episode, a real nostalgia trip too, which is interesting because of how it sets up time travel as a very likely component of the setting. It also simultaneously partially answered and expanded its mystery in one fell swoop better than four years of DIS.
While I liked having the old characters pop up as holocharacters I have mixed feelings about the use of their canned dialog. The TOS material is just so tinny in comparison to the more contemporary lines, and some of the lines are close yet emotionally mismatched to the scenes. I would have minded only a little if they used new voice actors for the characters, perhaps reading the old lines with new inflections, and sound quality, better suited to the scenes. At the same time, I do like the use of the original recordings so it's the "real" characters. Over all it works more than it doesn't.
Seeing the Kobayashi Maru is interesting, I was actually kind of dreading it because DIS just had a Maru episode. I'm glad I was wrong about it. The fake out at the end of the testing is interesting because of how the system lets Dal think he won, only to lure him into yet another trap. I have mixed feelings about that because it really looks like he really won, and really only accidentally failed himself, rather than the system conspiring to make him fail. But, we know the reality of the test, and confirmed by Dal accepting the reality of that failure, and further confirmed once the computer explains the test to him. The break at the end seems to be mostly about letting him hear and absorb the lesson from Spock, just as much as it was to lead him to the next failure. If it wasn't him destroying his own ship it would have been more Klingons just as he is shields down getting the Maru crew aboard, or something like that.
I like how it turns out Chakotay was captain of the Protostar, and going by the stardate it existed in the Delta quadrant before "Best of Both Worlds". An obvious time travel situation unless it is a partial fakeout in preparation for interdimensional shenanigans.
I really like that the crew is resisting Dal by insisting on going to the Federation. They're learning to assert themselves, perhaps their own training is having an effect, as well as growing trust of Janeway.
Also, Dal finally found out about transporters, hopefully he tells everyone, because that's a huge deal.
While I liked having the old characters pop up as holocharacters I have mixed feelings about the use of their canned dialog. The TOS material is just so tinny in comparison to the more contemporary lines, and some of the lines are close yet emotionally mismatched to the scenes. I would have minded only a little if they used new voice actors for the characters, perhaps reading the old lines with new inflections, and sound quality, better suited to the scenes. At the same time, I do like the use of the original recordings so it's the "real" characters. Over all it works more than it doesn't.
Seeing the Kobayashi Maru is interesting, I was actually kind of dreading it because DIS just had a Maru episode. I'm glad I was wrong about it. The fake out at the end of the testing is interesting because of how the system lets Dal think he won, only to lure him into yet another trap. I have mixed feelings about that because it really looks like he really won, and really only accidentally failed himself, rather than the system conspiring to make him fail. But, we know the reality of the test, and confirmed by Dal accepting the reality of that failure, and further confirmed once the computer explains the test to him. The break at the end seems to be mostly about letting him hear and absorb the lesson from Spock, just as much as it was to lead him to the next failure. If it wasn't him destroying his own ship it would have been more Klingons just as he is shields down getting the Maru crew aboard, or something like that.
I like how it turns out Chakotay was captain of the Protostar, and going by the stardate it existed in the Delta quadrant before "Best of Both Worlds". An obvious time travel situation unless it is a partial fakeout in preparation for interdimensional shenanigans.
I really like that the crew is resisting Dal by insisting on going to the Federation. They're learning to assert themselves, perhaps their own training is having an effect, as well as growing trust of Janeway.
Also, Dal finally found out about transporters, hopefully he tells everyone, because that's a huge deal.
Fantastic episode!
The holodeck segment felt very much like something out of Lower Decks (which is a good thing since I love that show too). I was happy that Gates McFadden reprised her role for Beverly Crusher in the episode!
Also......Chakotay!
I have a hunch that this show is going to turn out to be a follow-up show to Voyager when it's all said and done. I mean, having Janeway's hologram hinted at this at the start but they still tried to keep the Voyager connection low key since it was just a hologram of Janeway. So for those of you wondering if we'd ever have some sort of follow-up show or movie to Voyager the same way that Picard was to TNG...........well, here you go.
The holodeck segment felt very much like something out of Lower Decks (which is a good thing since I love that show too). I was happy that Gates McFadden reprised her role for Beverly Crusher in the episode!
Also......Chakotay!
I have a hunch that this show is going to turn out to be a follow-up show to Voyager when it's all said and done. I mean, having Janeway's hologram hinted at this at the start but they still tried to keep the Voyager connection low key since it was just a hologram of Janeway. So for those of you wondering if we'd ever have some sort of follow-up show or movie to Voyager the same way that Picard was to TNG...........well, here you go.
speaking of this, am I the only one thinking that the master-servant relationship we assumed previously between the Diviner and grievous might be something different after seeing this flashback?
I think that was the original intent in TWOK. There's no point in actually having the Kobayashi Maru be an actual ship in distress, because you'll die before you ever rescue it.
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