Star Trek is not, and never was, particularly progressive

[Sci]

I think we're more broadly running up against the dual nature of Star Trek. Its macro politics are unabashedly progressive -- pro-equal rights, pro-racial equality, pro-peace, anti-nationalist, anti-capitalist. But its micro politics are more conservative -- women are often depicted in sexualizing manner and as being emotionally weaker than men, and the whole thing is, to be a bit reductive, about space cops doing space colonialism in a space paramilitary. That's part of why Star Trek has broad appeal -- it's got the "We've overcome inequality and greed" stuff, but those speeches are delivered by guys in uniform who belong to an intensely hierarchical paramilitary organization, so it ends up appealing to both progressives and conservatives.

 

[Oddish]

Context helps. What’s progressive in the 1860s may not look so in the 1960s. What looks progressive in the 1960s may not look so in the 2020s.

Very true. Changes in technology, in scientific understanding, in social norms. What was unthinkable yesterday is normal today, and vice versa.

 

[suarezguy]

ST has been, I think very unsurprisingly, far from radical but I don't think that makes it not progressive.

 

[suarezguy]

TOS always felt progressive to me. Later Treks clicked that box to but they all probably did not go as far as they should, but went as far as they could for the times.

To me its style/tone felt solidly, even aspirationally/inspirationally liberal, again not radically so, and I think I would characterize the later series as that as well. Including or especially the diversity of the casts.

I do think it's pretty unfair to expect an American TV show to reflect the demographics of the whole world rather than of the U.S.

 

[Watersluis]

I think it was. Sulu may have been more Japanese American than Japanese, but being the latter may be more important. Being an ethnic minority in one's country brings with it the weight of discrimination and exclusion not present otherwise. If the ships were crewed only by the majority populations if each nation, all it would celebrate would be the ability of the majority to monopolize all the positions of power and prestige. A progressive Star Trek ought to have Frenchmen of African descent rather than Africans, Germans of Turkish descent rather than Turks, etc.

This is true, but it's done in the usual manner of the U.S.A. being the only country with racial minorities, and all other countries seemingly lacking them, except for Bashir, who I've read was the first non-white main British character in U.S.A. television, which does show this principle since there is of course a considerable English population of Indian origin.

Consider Deus Ex, which is quite a bit better at this which I enjoyed, and also very well repræsents the world as the main character has always traveled it in that title.

women are often depicted in sexualizing manner

I agree here.

and as being emotionally weaker than men

I disagree here, Spock was originally based on a female character, who against trope was already displayed as very cold and calculating. I don't think Star Trek every really had this flaw.

But however not emotionally weak Seven of Nine was, it's hard to argue the ridiculousness of the not-so-efficient outfit.

 

[Oddish]

But however not emotionally weak Seven of Nine was, it's hard to argue the ridiculousness of the not-so-efficient outfit.

Agreed. That was about as progressive as the old "even a woman can open it" ketchup ad.

 

[Hofner]

As I read this thread, I'm reminded more and more of the TOS episode "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield". How Bele was offended at the insinuation that he and Lokai are alike.

Merry Christmas everybody,

Robert

 

[Watersluis]

Agreed. That was about as progressive as the old "even a woman can open it" ketchup ad.

Above all, simply ridiculous and not fitting the character. Surely Seven would protest immediately at the lack of efficiency, and would probably demand being shaven bald as scalp hair is inefficient.
Had it been Jadzia Dax, it would at least fit the character.
It's in and of itself a bit of a problem with D.S.9. and the Las Vegas theme in particular. Behr seemed to favor it.
Hearkening back to Japanese productions, a big issue with Anglo-Saxon productions has always been the asymmetry of how females are so very sexualized, but males are not. At least in Japanse productions, it is often more evenly done, and also more so fits their character.

 

[Nyotarules]

Anglo Saxon productions?

 

[Watersluis]

Anglo Saxon productions?

Productions from the U.K., U.S.A., Australia, Canada, New-Zealand &c.
Essentially all countries that descend culturally from the British Empire where English is the primarily language. There are common themes: Anglo-Saxon culture is known for it's aversion to nudity and it's lack of male sex appeal.

 

[Nyotarules]

Productions from the U.K., U.S.A., Australia, Canada, New-Zealand &c.
Essentially all countries that descend culturally from the British Empire where English is the primarily language. There are common themes: Anglo-Saxon culture is known for it's aversion to nudity and it's lack of male sex appeal.

Because its not a warm culture, shrunken white willie's are not pretty. I've seen em! And a pale pasty body, looks like gammon. Who wants to see that?

 

[Watersluis]

Because its not a warm culture, shrunken white willie's are not pretty. I've seem em! And a pale pasty body, looks like gammon. Who wants to see that?

Then why is there still so much female serialization in it?
Sweden is certainly colder, but it has neither the aversion of nudity nor the same degree of lack of male sexualization.

I don't thin there is any particular reason to it; every culture has it's own taboos which will seem silly to outsiders.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

At least in Japanse productions, it is often more evenly done, and also more so fits their character.

 

[valkyrie013]

If you take a look at it lately in HBO and Netflix Productions plenty of male and female sexualization and nudity.

 

[GNDN18]

Anglo-Saxon culture is known for it's aversion to nudity and it's lack of male sex appeal.

 

[Watersluis]

Exactly that. — In much of continental Europe, every beach is a nude beach and nudity is on public television where it would surely be censored in Anglo-Saxon countries.

There was a rather interesting case where a Swiss parliamentary member had leaked naked pictures: U.S.A. news reporting of it censored the nipples, but printed the name and face; Swiss news reports showed the nipples, but censored the face and did not print the name.

I would be breaking the rules of this board if I showed various segments from children's programming I watches as a small child as they are cartoons which feature genitals in full display, which is invariably censored in Anglo-Saxon children's programming.

Anglo-Saxon culture is absolutely noted around the world for it's sensitivity towards nudity and it is known to lead to culture shocks.

 

[cooleddie74]

 

[cooleddie74]

Agreed. That was about as progressive as the old "even a woman can open it" ketchup ad.

Yeah, Jeri Ryan overcame the limitations of her sex kitten costumes to become one of the standout performers on VOY but it took someone with her acting chops and dedication to make Seven more than just a hot Borg in high heels to turn her character into something so memorable she's returned 20 years later in another Trek series.

Jeri made Seven into something worth watching for the character and not just Rick Berman's eye candy costume choices.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I disagree here, Spock was originally based on a female character, who against trope was already displayed as very cold and calculating. I don't think Star Trek every really had this flaw.

Wait... what? Do you mean that some of his traits were taken from Number One when that character was eliminated? Because Spock was there since the beginning. He wasn't based on anything other than Roddenberry wanting a half-human/half-alien character.

 

[cooleddie74]

Spock in "The Cage(TOS)" was basically Spock who smiled and shouted. He was already there. Cold, efficient and committed to science and his Captain.