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Star Trek is not, and never was, particularly progressive

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What if one isn't available? What if they can't play the part correctly? That won't accomplish anything.
Have you seen the pool of Asian American Actors available, it's HUGE.

There will be one available if you actually bother to look.

Most of Hollywood is run by the "Good Ole Boys" network and won't hire asians.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...e-poorly-represented-in-hollywood-study-shows

I'm 1/2 Native American (Cherokee Indian). I empathize with you. I had issues with Chakotay.

Every other word out of a NA's mouth seems to be pseudo-mystical gibberish (I'm watching my people die from Covid-19).

Do you know what it's like to watch your people's language being reduced to "How," "Kemo Sabe," and "Ug"?
Voyager screwed up by hiring a Fraud.
https://redshirtsalwaysdie.com/2021/02/26/voyagers-native-american-consultant-was-a-fraud/
 
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If you want a Japanese Character, then hire a Japanese Actor.
You act holy, but it is clear that in your view a born-and-raised U.S.A. citizen who never set foot in Japan but has parents who lived there for some time suffices.

I'm sure that mentality is true of every citizen of their specific nation.
Apparently not, because if I look at Japanese science fiction it is not so Japan-centric and often a more global thing. Indeed Pacific Rim is probably the one U.S.A. production that did this very well, an is noted for taking it's queues from Japanese cinema.

I certainly do not consider the Netherlands the centre of the world; I do not on the internet assume that everyone is Dutch, or that all countries have the same legal system as the Netherlands and I certainly do not go about calling people who have lived their entire lives in the Netherlands “Japanese" because one of their parents was born in Japan. — To suggest a man is any less Dutch, or a special type of Dutch because of something with his parents before he was born is not something commonly around the world.
 
You act holy, but it is clear that in your view a born-and-raised U.S.A. citizen who never set foot in Japan but has parents who lived there for some time suffices.
That's the standard that works around these neck of the woods.

Ethnicity is linked to your genetic ancestry & cultural heritage.
It's diverse, and it can spread far and wide.

Apparently not, because if I look at Japanese science fiction it is not so Japan-centric and often a more global thing. Indeed Pacific Rim is probably the one U.S.A. production that did this very well, an is noted for taking it's queues from Japanese cinema.
You and I haven't been watching the same Japanese media. ALOT of their shows are Japanese-centric.
Even in fictional settings that don't have anything to do with Japan, Japan gets inserted into it.

I certainly do not consider the Netherlands the centre of the world; I do not on the internet assume that everyone is Dutch, or that all countries have the same legal system as the Netherlands and I certainly do not go about calling people who have lived their entire lives in the Netherlands “Japanese" because one of their parents was born in Japan. — To suggest a man is any less Dutch, or a special type of Dutch because of something with his parents before he was born is not something commonly around the world.
Do you consider anything the center of the world?

What about your own country that you reside in?
 
This is something that was really cemented to me after finishing the last season of Lower Decks in one go. In particular in the scene where two humanoid life-forms with pointy ears, one having heavy eye-liner and the other not, assumingly a male, and female Vulcan, were shown side by side. — It is often said that Star Trek as a franchise is at the vanguard of progressiveness and challenging it's audience, but I find myself strongly disagreeing.

Surprise, surprise: females of an alien species like wearing make-up too. And it's one of the more haughty races that judges us because we eat replicated hamburgers.

I suppose that for The Original Series, one can argue that for the time, for a U.S.A. television series it was certainly a daring move to specifically include non-white cast members, cast members from around the planet, a Russian at the height of the cold war in particular, and female cast members. — These would certainly be things that challenged the U.S.A. audience but that was al it did. I actually particularly dislike how 300 years into the future these supposed pedigree “races” still apparently exist.

Race is a social construct, and I don't see it much in Star Trek. While I assume people living in a far flung utopian future would probably look different than us, you have to remember this is show done using 20th/21st Century actors who can't change their skin tones (nor should they have their appearance altered in any way, through make-up or post-production effects or anything like that.) I get what you are trying to say, but I don't think just hiring actors with light brown skin tones for Star Trek would convey what you are trying to say about different ethnic and racial groups intermingling. At best, it would come across tone-deaf and pretentious, at worst it would come across as offensive and likely racist.

The U.S.A. is the only country in the Americas where “races” continue to exist; every other country has already for the most part merged into this somewhat homogeneous brown complexion.

If the bridge crew of the Enterprise looked thus, I would have certainly liked it more.

Don't know where you've heard this. Race and racism is very much prevalent in the rest of the world. Look at Europe, which people sometimes like to point to as some sort of liberal paradise. Many European nations are predominantly white and aren't exactly looking to be anything else. Look at the refugee crisis over there, some European states (like Denmark) are struggling with accepting refugees from Africa and the Middle East, and I'm sure it's not because of the paperwork. Look at Brexit, which was in large part inspired by anti-non white refugee sentiments. Truth be told the U.S., despite its continued struggles with racism, is lot more inviting to non-whites than many European nations.

And after that, it only becomes worse. T.N.G. certainly did nothing remarkable for it's time in that department. Featuring non-white, non-male characters was nothing new a that time of course, and then D.S.9. was a particular embarrassment with it's treatment of race, inventing “black Bajorans”, which were never seen before, simply to give Jake Sisko a love interest since even though cross-species romance is fine, cross-race apparently is too sensitive in the 90s?
What's wrong with Bajorans portrayed by black actors? If Bajor is like Earth, and the Bajorans evolved like humans, why wouldn't you expect to see Bajorans of different complexions? Plus, we don't know the reasoning behind ever casting decision on DS9, so why assume racism is behind it?

The intro sequence of Enterprise was a further embarrassment, willfully excluding the first man in space from it's opening montage of great feats of exploration because it was a soviet achievement? Gene Roddenberry would turn in his grave after he achieved including a Russian character at the height of the cold war, but showing the first man in space in 2002 is too much to ask?

They showed Sputnik in Carbon Creek. Yuri Gagrin got name dropped a couple of times in a couple of shows. The Enterprise intro is not supposed to be a historically accurate depiction of human exploration. I mean it jumps from the Age of Sail to the Wright Brothers' plane then zips to jets, rockets and spaceships.

There were some interesting things however, such as Denobuians being portrayed as a polygamous species where each individual is married to three others, and the episode that highlighted it did serve to challenge the U.S.A.-audience on their views on monogamy, as well as the three-sex species where the third sex was essentially a slave cast, but it certainly was not much.

And it also showed that Denobulans, like humans, dealt with racism. In this case, with an actual race of beings from another world.

Of course, it can't be omitted how much Star Trek has categorically been lacking behind in including same-sex relationships when this was already very mainstream in other titles,

True, this will always be Star Trek's biggest sin. But now we have Discovery, with a gay couple, a non-binary character, and a trans character. Beckett Mariner from Lower Decks is bi-sexual or pan-sexual. So the franchise is making up for lost time.

and frankly how absurd it's treatment of gender has always been. How reptilian alien species still have males and females with the females somehow having breasts or how completely different alien species must sport sex-coded haircuts conformant with North American gender roles. Just so there be absolutely no mistaking who is male, and who is female. They could do anything they wanted with alien species; they could have made both the male and female members of an alien species both be played by say female human actors, but make the females bald, and have the males have elaborate peacock-style colorful manes, which is certainly not biologically unlikely, but for the most part that would challenge the audience too much. Liquid lifeforms that only assume a humanoid form for convenience to interact with humanoids must still have a gender. We are talking about aliens here who could have very interesting biology, but this was all thy could come up with.

Star Trek did the best it could with the budget it had. It couldn't always push the boundaries in its depiction of alien life like the cantina scene in Star Wars could. We had to settle for human actors wearing bumpy masks which didn't do much to hide their gender. Of course, we also have to consider that for better or for worse, people behind the scenes wanted the audience to be able to easily identify the gender of alien species that appeared on screen, so they applied Western standards (these were American shows) of what is male and what is female to their alien creations. But you did have aliens that didn't always conform to tradition definitions of gender. You had the androgynous aliens like the J'naii, Talosians, and Bynars. You had female-dominated societies like Angel One, the Skrreeans, and the Sphere-Builders. You had non-humanoids like the Horta and Species 8472, which apparently had a least 5 genders. Star Trek Discovery has gotten better in the make-up department. You now see all kinds of species whose gender (if they even have something like gender) is not easily noticeable.

Then onto Lower Decks where it all started: we indeed finally have our same-sex sexual intercourse, and actually handled in a way that I like as it's treated as the most common thing without special attention drawn to it, but all the female cast members wear this strange eyeliner, races still exist, haircuts must be conformant to gender and race from a purely U.S.A. cultural perspective, and even though it be animation, where the sky is the limit and one is not beholden to any limits of human actors, alien species must still have exactly the same sex characteristics as humans do.

Certainly in animation, I've een far better, and far more impressive things that push the boundary.
Lower Decks banks on the nostalgia for the first five Star Trek series, so it adopts the look of those shows, warts and all.
 
It wasn't until Voyager that we got Garret Wang playing Harry Kim, but Hollywood made a Chinese man play a Korean character.

And then turned him into a meme.

Chakotay -- he had no past, no history, no culture. His primary function seemed to be sputtering metaphysical nonsense!

Trek is a show that is secular humanist at heart. To say that it doesn't handle spirituality very well is an understatement.

True, this will always be Star Trek's biggest sin. But now we have Discovery, with a gay couple, a non-binary character, and a trans character. Beckett Mariner from Lower Decks is bi-sexual or pan-sexual. So the franchise is making up for lost time.

As long as they do these characters justice. I really liked what I saw of Stamets and Culber early on, hope it continues.

Beckett Mariner is "Bad"-sexual & Omni-sexual.

Sounds like Frank N. Further in the Rocky Horror Picture Show... he was bisexual, polyamorous, and insanely jealous.
 
Surprise, surprise: females of an alien species like wearing make-up too. And it's one of the more haughty races that judges us because we eat replicated hamburgers.
Yes, that is a surprise; it's very surprising and odd to begin with that alien cultures follow U.S.A. fashion standards, when other populations on Earth do not even do so. You'll find there to be population that either lack gendered fashion standards, or have them in an entirely different way than what the U.S.A. does.

you have to remember this is show done using 20th/21st Century actors who can't change their skin tones
They could find enough such actors for The Time Machine. Such actors walk the earth already in most of the Americas.

Don't know where you've heard this. Race and racism is very much prevalent in the rest of the world. Look at Europe, which people sometimes like to point to as some sort of liberal paradise. Many European nations are predominantly white and aren't exactly looking to be anything else. Look at the refugee crisis over there, some European states (like Denmark) are struggling with accepting refugees from Africa and the Middle East, and I'm sure it's not because of the paperwork. Look at Brexit, which was in large part inspired by anti-non white refugee sentiments. Truth be told the U.S., despite its continued struggles with racism, is lot more inviting to non-whites than many European nations.
What does this have to do with anything I wrote? I simply said the U.S.A. is the only country in the Americas where such races still exist, rather than having merged into a homogeneous brown complexion. I never spoke of Europe, nor did I speak of any racism. I simply said that for the most part inhabitants of, say, Mexico all have a somewhat similar shade of brown skin.

What's wrong with Bajorans portrayed by black actors? If Bajor is like Earth, and the Bajorans evolved like humans, why wouldn't you expect to see Bajorans of different complexions? Plus, we don't know the reasoning behind ever casting decision on DS9, so why assume racism is behind it?
The problem is that no such “black bajoran” was seen before Jake Sisko got a love interest and the first one just happened to have to be one which is what D.S.9. constantly did with Jake and Benjamin Sisko.

Perhaps one time is a cosmological fluke, but it happened consistently.

They showed Sputnik in Carbon Creek. Yuri Gagrin got name dropped a couple of times in a couple of shows. The Enterprise intro is not supposed to be a historically accurate depiction of human exploration. I mean it jumps from the Age of Sail to the Wright Brothers' plane then zips to jets, rockets and spaceships.
Indeed it is not supposed to be, and that is the problem: it only shows Anglo-Saxon exploration achievements while Starfleet is supposedly an Earth organization and Earth is already unified under a central government.

True, this will always be Star Trek's biggest sin. But now we have Discovery, with a gay couple, a non-binary character, and a trans character. Beckett Mariner from Lower Decks is bi-sexual or pan-sexual. So the franchise is making up for lost time.
Discovery handles it horribly with such ridiculous things as “l.g.b.t. identities” still existing 300 years into the future? Torchwood was much better with mankind simply not caring about such matters any more. Jack Harkness isn't “bisexual”; he is simply a person from his own perspective because he never consider anything else could be. Much as the Græco-Roman civilization had no words for “sexual orientations”, because such a thing did not exist as all citizens had relations with members of either sex.

We had to settle for human actors wearing bumpy masks which didn't do much to hide their gender.
Not at all, as I said, we could have alien species where both sexes were played by say human female actors, but the males had brightly colored hair, peacock-esque, and the females were bald. There is no reason to have have the sex of aliens match that of the actor.

Of course, we also have to consider that for better or for worse, people behind the scenes wanted the audience to be able to easily identify the gender of alien species that appeared on screen
Indeed, and this is the real reason; it veers into r/pointlesslygendered territory. — Why they would care for that is what one could and should wonder. Even if it be relevant to the plot it can easily be explained with a throwaway line and most of the time it isn't.

The very mentality of the people behind the scenes of the audience knowing what the sex of aliens is is what keeps Star Trek from being progressive as a franchise. The progressive man cares not for such trifles, such as for instance Jack Harkness, but yet again, he is pedigree “white”. I would have rather liked a 51th century England where everyone was of the brown color I spoke of.

You had female-dominated societies like Angel One, the Skrreeans, and the Sphere-Builders.
No, you assume the builders are female because they were all played by human female actors. Nothing was mentioned of this sort: they could have been a single-sex species; they could have had as many as five sexes; the different eye colors they had could have actually been their sex characteristics; or maybe they had none beyond their reproductive system.
 
Yes, that is a surprise; it's very surprising and odd to begin with that alien cultures follow U.S.A. fashion standards, when other populations on Earth do not even do so. You'll find there to be population that either lack gendered fashion standards, or have them in an entirely different way than what the U.S.A. does.

Narissa liked gold fingernail polish.

What does this have to do with anything I wrote? I simply said the U.S.A. is the only country in the Americas where such races still exist, rather than having merged into a homogeneous brown complexion. I never spoke of Europe, nor did I speak of any racism. I simply said that for the most part inhabitants of, say, Mexico all have a somewhat similar shade of brown skin.

Mexico is NOT homogenous.

There are three primary descent groups in Mexico: those who trace their family back to Spain, indigenous peoples (Mayans, Aztecs, etc.), and mestizos (combined Spanish and indigenous ancestry).

There are other ethnicities in Mexico (Mexico has a growing Arab community). At one point, Mexico was a French colony in the 19th century.

To say that Mexico has become this one shade of brown is to oversimplify a VERY complex history.

-------

I recently read an article about the West Side Story remake. Rita Moreno (who played Anita in the original film) has light skin.

The makeup artist on the original film insisted on putting her in dark makeup. When she complained, he called her a racist!

To say that "All Mexicans have brown skin" is to ignore human variation. IDIC.
 
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Mexico is NOT homogenous.

There are three primary descent groups in Mexico: those who trace their family back to Spain, indigenous peoples (Mayans, Aztecs, etc.), and mestizos (combined Spanish and indigenous ancestry).

There are other ethnicities in Mexico (Mexico has a growing Arab community). At one point, Mexico was a French colony in the 19th century.

To say that Mexico has become this one shade of brown is to oversimplify a VERY complex history.
There will always be a minority of recent immigrants that has not yet been “absorbed” that will eventually the pool, but if I look up a picture of a busy street in Mexico-City, what I mostly see is a sea of brown:

5rHsXSk.jpg


I had simply wished the bridge of the enterprise to look more similar to that, and Jack Harkness. If Jack Harkness looked as such, a man from the future, it would have cemented his persona as a man from an æra where no one cares any more.

Daniels from Enterprise actually has significant alien d.n.a. according to Phlox but looks awfully white to me. — Have men truly taken to breed with aliens, before they have taken to breed among themselves without regard for skint one?
 
There will always be a minority of recent immigrants that has not yet been “absorbed” that will eventually the pool, but if I look up a picture of a busy street in Mexico-City, what I mostly see is a sea of brown:
You a re confusing different communities coexisting with inclusion and equality. Trust, the fact that some people of Latin and Latin American descent whose skin is now less than translucent does not eliminate racism. There are still biased against those seen as darker.
 
You a re confusing different communities coexisting with inclusion and equality. Trust, the fact that some people of Latin and Latin American descent whose skin is now less than translucent does not eliminate racism. There are still biased against those seen as darker.
No, I did not, because I never spoke of “inclusion”, “æquality”, and “racism”.
I made no statement on that matter and I'm not sure how you can read that into it. I never spoke of how anyone is treated; I spoke of how people visually look, which is all I did, because all I asked was for the bridge of the Enterprise to visually look a certain way.
All I said is that in most of the Americas, almost all people are of a somewhat homogeneous brown look that somewhat realistically resembles what would occur if all mankind had been breeding for 300 years with no regards to race, and that that is what I wish for the crew of the Enterprise to visually look; I made no statement on “inclusion”.
 
The U.S.A. is the only country in the Americas where “races” continue to exist; every other country has already for the most part merged into this somewhat homogeneous brown complexion.

All I said is that in most of the Americas, almost all people are of a somewhat homogeneous brown look that somewhat realistically resembles what would occur if all mankind had been breeding for 300 years with no regards to race,

Sorry to burst your bubble, they were always brown, and that fact is not some sort of sign of greater progress, which you have insinuated throughout this thread.

Please think next time you post.
 
Sorry to burst your bubble, they were always brown
Certainly not; these countries as the U.S.A. is were originally inhabited by Americans, then Europeans came over, killed the majority of these Americans, brought a fair share of captured African slaves with them, and a good portion of Chinese followed after for business opportunities.

Go back 200 years in those countries, and those distinct races that now still exist in the U.S.A.. still existed there, but the big difference in all those other countries was that after slavery was abolished and they became independent, there were no “Jim Crow laws” to fill the vacuum, races were free to mingle, and so they did. “Miscegenation” was a crime in the U.S.A. for a long time.

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This man is not “always”; this man is clearly a mixture of many “pedigree races”.

and that fact is not some sort of sign of greater progress, which you have insinuated throughout this thread.
“Progressive”? It is certainly reflective of a culture where a man is free to choose with whom he breeds with less regard to race, but there are few countries on this planet where more weight is put to the color of a man's skin than the U.S.A., not even South Africa these days seems to be as bad as the U.S.A., though it of course certainly was during racial apartheid.
 
Well...

I'm not sure exactly what we're talking about here, but it doesn't seem to be Star Trek.

It does seem to be very weird and off-putting though.

Let's see if we can bring it back to the original subject, or we'll close this down and you can talk about the "brownness" (I guess?) of people in the future in a more appropriate forum.
 
Late but just had to say, Michael Greyeyes one performance in The Examples had more substance than Beltran's entire run as Chakotay.

ETA: TOS always felt progressive to me. Later Treks clicked that box to but they all probably did not go as far as they should, but went as far as they could for the times.
 
Well...

I'm not sure exactly what we're talking about here, but it doesn't seem to be Star Trek.

It does seem to be very weird and off-putting though.

Let's see if we can bring it back to the original subject, or we'll close this down and you can talk about the "brownness" (I guess?) of people in the future in a more appropriate forum.


shatner-stop.gif
 
TOS always felt progressive to me. Later Treks clicked that box to but they all probably did not go as far as they should, but went as far as they could for the times.
I think it was. Sulu may have been more Japanese American than Japanese, but being the latter may be more important. Being an ethnic minority in one's country brings with it the weight of discrimination and exclusion not present otherwise. If the ships were crewed only by the majority populations if each nation, all it would celebrate would be the ability of the majority to monopolize all the positions of power and prestige. A progressive Star Trek ought to have Frenchmen of African descent rather than Africans, Germans of Turkish descent rather than Turks, etc.

It also should be noted that making broad comparisons really aren't helpful. Things may not line up comfortably. Anime may have a better track record with some identities, for example, but could have other problems, like persistent misogyny.
 
There will always be a minority of recent immigrants that has not yet been “absorbed” that will eventually the pool, but if I look up a picture of a busy street in Mexico-City, what I mostly see is a sea of brown:

5rHsXSk.jpg


I had simply wished the bridge of the enterprise to look more similar to that, and Jack Harkness. If Jack Harkness looked as such, a man from the future, it would have cemented his persona as a man from an æra where no one cares any more.

Daniels from Enterprise actually has significant alien d.n.a. according to Phlox but looks awfully white to me. — Have men truly taken to breed with aliens, before they have taken to breed among themselves without regard for skint one?

you have no idea what you are talking about, and not even looking very closely at the picture you picked. If I pick a certain section of Boston all I will see are people that look like the hopped off a train in Dublin. It won't much look like another section of Atlanta. The same is just as true of Mexico. You have areas in the south where it is more Mayan than anything, places on the coast with white retirees from the States, etc.
 
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