What Would Jellico Do?

[Mojochi]

I don't think Jellico was micromanaging at all.

I don't really think so either, but I guess it's an opinion. It depends on how you look at it. He does reassign the bridge duty stations, so more is controlled in his command vicinity. There's the claim that he's personally reassigned a lot of the crew to different areas. Walking department by department... Get this done... Get that done
For a while at least, there's a point to be made that he's all up in their day to day, having his way with it.

This is all very likely warranted IMHO. It's a new critical mission with a new dynamic and a new command team. An initial amount of hovering, & handing down specifics is to be expected & not necessarily a sign of a permanent behavior. You'll notice that toward the end, things are running very smoothly.

 

[Disco]

I disagree. Jellico's behaviour was not expected or warranted. He was dealing with one of the best crews on the fleet so he should have trusted them.

A lot of people say that he had to make the changes because they were entering a war and as a result the crew should just follow him. The job of a leader though is to take people with them and to trust and encourage them.

Jellico did none of this. He imposed changes that were not required, but suited him and in the process split his command staff.

Going into a war you want, I presume having never gone into war, a tight unit that is willing to go the extra for their commander. The best leaders in history had this. Jellico did not.

 

[Admiral2]

I disagree. Jellico's behaviour was not expected or warranted. He was dealing with one of the best crews on the fleet so he should have trusted them.

A lot of people say that he had to make the changes because they were entering a war and as a result the crew should just follow him. The job of a leader though is to take people with them and to trust and encourage them.

Trust is a two-way street. The crew should have trusted that regardless of his demeanor Jellico was given command for a reason, and even if they weren't sure what his intentions were, they should have trusted that he knew what he was doing. They didn't offer him that trust, so he was under no obligation to trust them.

Jellico did none of this. He imposed changes that were not required,

The changes were required because He required them. That's how command works.

but suited him and in the process split his command staff.

He had the right to make changes that suited only him. How the crew reacted to the changes was not his problem.

Going into a war you want, I presume having never gone into war, a tight unit that is willing to go the extra for their commander. The best leaders in history had this. Jellico did not.

And some of the best leaders in history were complete assholes. The commander you'll go to hell and back for is mostly a TV and movie trope. Great leadership in war is defined mostly by achieving objectives. The subordinates' opinion of the commander while he's achieving them is a secondary consideration.

 

[Oddish]

The changes were required because he required them. That's how command works.

Required, under those conditions, is not the same as "a good idea". Jellico could have taken the ship's photon launchers offline and ordered that they shoot bundles of pink chrysanthemums. As captain, he had that right. But you can't deny, that would have negatively affected the ship's combat readiness... just like creating a fourth shift on the eve of battle.

 

[Mojochi]

If an added shift that actually shortened overall shift length was going to be as much of a critical mistake that's being claimed around here, then it would have been. The fact that nothing is ever spoken about it again, once implemented is proof enough to not second guess a fictional command. Nothing negative of note came of it, except that it chapped Riker's ass. It's pretty silly to back seat drive a leader whose circumstances are utterly fictitious, like we could possibly be certain about any of it.

Trust is a two-way street. The crew should have trusted that regardless of his demeanor Jellico was given command for a reason, and even if they weren't sure what his intentions were, they should have trusted that he knew what he was doing. They didn't offer him that trust, so he was under no obligation to trust them.

More than that even IMHO. Knowing that the crew he was being placed in command of was largely assembled by Picard himself would've gone a long way to suggesting that him unceremoniously ousting Picard might not be well received by that crew, no matter how excellent they are, or the mission specifics.

Hell, before Jellico even stepped aboard, Riker has already lodged an objection to a new captain being assigned there over him. Don't you think Nechayev would've informed Jellico of that? That he's walking into a potentially unwelcoming environment? So he can be fully prepared?

Wouldn't it be prudent to factor that social dynamic into how you might proceed, & wouldn't the conclusion be "I'm the bad guy no matter what I do. I might as well try to make that an advantage instead of a disadvantage"?

 

[Admiral2]

Required, under those conditions, is not the same as "a good idea".

It's also not the same as a "bad idea." It is just what the captain wants, and the crew can't use possibility that it's a "bad idea" as an excuse to ignore the order.

Jellico could have taken the ship's photon launchers offline and ordered that they shoot bundles of pink chrysanthemums. As captain, he had that right. But you can't deny, that would have negatively affected the ship's combat readiness...

And if the target was a giant space going entity whose only weakness was the petals of pink chrysanthemums, the captain would be decorated for his ingenuity.
(Hey, we can trade bullshit scenarios all you like. It might be entertaining for the rest of the thread readers.)

just like creating a fourth shift on the eve of battle.

That's for Jellico's superiors and future historians to decide, not his crew before they even try to implement the order.

 

[Ragitsu]

C'mon guys...he has paintings to examine. The temporary Captain is a busy man.

 

[Mojochi]

^I suppose you'd prefer he stare at a fish & fiddle with crystals ? Lol

 

[Ragitsu]

^I suppose you'd prefer he stare at a fish & fiddle with crystals ? Lol

A key difference: the resident fish-gazer and crystal-fondler didn't shield himself with a defense of purported busyness.

 

[Oddish]

If an added shift that actually shortened overall shift length was going to be as much of a critical mistake that's being claimed around here, then it would have been. The fact that nothing is ever spoken about it again, once implemented is proof enough to not second guess a fictional command. Nothing negative of note came of it, except that it chapped Riker's a**.

True. Because the Enterprise never saw actual combat with the change active. The conflict was resolved by Geordi and Data's scientific and technical skill, Riker's handiness with a shuttle, and Worf's ordnance.

It's also not the same as a "bad idea." It is just what the captain wants, and the crew can't use possibility that it's a "bad idea" as an excuse to ignore the order.

Maybe not. But when a proposed change could get your ship BLASTED OUT OF SPACE BY THE FRICKIN' CARDASSIANS, it's good to point that out.

Jellico said he wanted to be loaded for bear, but it didn't occur to him that if Delta Shift (brand new and unaccustomed to their duties and working together) was active when the Cardies showed up, his bullets might miss.

That's for Jellico's superiors and future historians to decide, not his crew before they even try to implement the order.

But if the captain has any brains at all, he will look at what will keep his ship in one piece, as opposed to "what I want because I'm the captain".

 

[Mojochi]

True. Because the Enterprise never saw actual combat with the change active.

But that wasn't the beef. The beef was that it was going to cause problems, not especially those applicable to battle, just problems. It was going to create "significant personnel problems". This, before we really even got to the part about imminent battle, & yet, not a peep thereafter about those personnel & how problemed they were.

A key difference: the resident fish-gazer and crystal-fondler didn't shield himself with a defense of purported busyness.

Never? Not one mission ever, did he ever distance himself from the crew with work? Remember this is Picard we're talking about

Point is, I don't really think Jellico & Picard are all that different at all. The nature of their assignments were, & were you to drop Picard onto a ship that didn't want him from the get-go, he'd be in a position to have to play ball very much the same way.

 

[Ragitsu]

Never? Not one mission ever, did he ever distance himself from the crew with work? Remember this is Picard we're talking about

The only consistent examples I can remember are humorous in nature: excuses used to evade Lwaxana.

 

[Admiral2]

Maybe not. But when a proposed change could get your ship BLASTED OUT OF SPACE BY THE FRICKIN' CARDASSIANS, it's good to point that out.

How the fuck do you make that assessment???

The shields will work exactly the same!

The phasers will work exactly the same!

The photon torpedoes will work exactly the same!

The only difference in the ship's defensive systems after the change will be the people operating them at a particular hour, and operating them requires only pushing contacts on a screen that reconfigures depending on the preferences of the user, just like the entire crew had been doing for the previous six fucking years!!!

Jellico said he wanted to be loaded for bear, but it didn't occur to him that if Delta Shift (brand new and unaccustomed to their duties and working together) was active when the Cardies showed up, his bullets might miss.

You say this as if it's a foregone conclusion that the fourth shift will be made up entirely of first year cadets sucking their thumbs and needing their asses wiped. That's asinine!

Every ship's crew is a mixture of experienced hands and inexperienced newbies. As long as experienced hands are distributed among each shift and, more importantly, everybody respects the chain of command, just adding one shift to the rotation will not automatically spell doom for the ship...unless, like the ENT-D crew - and you - everybody involved is suffering from Fourth Shift Derangement Syndrome.

But if the captain has any brains at all, he will look at what will keep his ship in one piece, as opposed to "what I want because I'm the captain".

And how do you know what the captain wants won't keep the ship in one piece? You don't, because the captain has more experience than you, and that's why he's The Captain and you ain't, so you give him what he wants because A) he's entitled to it and B) not giving it to him has the same chance of getting you dead as you following the wrong order.

 

[Oddish]

You can bluster and spew F-words to your heart's content; it's not going to make your argument more credible.

When you form a new shift from people selected from other shifts, it takes time for that crew to start to function as a well-oiled machine. That's why they talk about "shake-down periods", it allows such issues to be resolved. With a month or so of practice and drills, a four-shift rotation might have been more efficient. But given the timeframe involved, Delta Shift was probably still falling all over themselves like stoned college freshmen at a pot party when Worf was gleefully detonating mines on the Cardassian ships. Had they faced real combat, that inexperience might have been a major problem.

 

[Admiral2]

You can bluster and spew F-words to your heart's content; it's not going to make your argument more credible.

And your argument is mired in "worst case scenario" and continues to ignore the facts of the situation.

When you form a new shift from people selected from other shifts, it takes time for that crew to start to function as a well-oiled machine. That's why they talk about "shake-down periods",

And when you're not given a shakedown period, you fall back on seniority, experience and the chain of command. That's what they're there for.

it allows such issues to be resolved. With a month or so of practice and drills, a four-shift rotation might have been more efficient.

Hell, with a month or so of practice the fourth shift crew could have earned participation badges. The captain didn't give them a month...and he didn't have to.

But given the timeframe involved, Delta Shift was probably still falling all over themselves like stoned college freshmen at a pot party when Worf was gleefully detonating mines on the Cardassian ships. Had they faced real combat, that inexperience might have been a major problem.

Well, thank goodness someone had the presence of mind to approve an attack plan that only required Worf detonating mines. Remind me, who made that decision again?

 

[Oddish]

Well, thank goodness someone had the presence of mind to approve an attack plan that only required Worf detonating mines. Remind me, who made that decision again?

I never said Jellico was uniformly incompetent. I stood completely by most of his actions, even his decision not to acknowledge Picard's covert mission. I simply think that he should have stayed with the three-shift rotation through the encounter with the Cardassians. If Picard had perished and Jellico had received permanent command of the Enterprise, it would have been fine for him to build a new shift during a period of routine operations.

 

[Admiral2]

I never said Jellico was uniformly incompetent. I stood completely by most of his actions, even his decision not to acknowledge Picard's covert mission. I simply think that he should have stayed with the three-shift rotation through the encounter with the Cardassians. If Picard had perished and Jellico had received permanent command of the Enterprise, it would have been fine for him to build a new shift during a period of routine operations.

The problem is you're trying to set conditions on Jellico's authority as commanding officer because you agree with some decisions but disagree with others. I'm saying that it's not a matter of agreement of disagreement. I simply acknowledge Jellico's authority as Captain, which is absolute within his ship, just like it has been for every ship's captain spanning centuries of recorded time. Only Jellico's superiors have the right to curtail that authority, but they didn't.

The status of Jellico's command was not subject to the success or failure of Picard's mission because their mutual superiors didn't say it was. Picard relinquished command, Jellico accepted it, and the moment he did he was Captain of the Enterprise, period. There was no TDY codicil attached to the assignment and it shouldn't be assumed that there was. He was Captain, with full authority to make decisions as Captain.

So, He didn't wait for the outcome of Picard's mission to make staffing changes because he didn't have to. He didn't wait for the Cardassian encounter to be over before making staffing changes because he didn't have to. And he didn't wait for the crew to agree with his decision to make those staffing changes because, guess what, he didn't have to. He only exercised the same authority Picard exercised over the previous six years and he had the right to expect the crew to respect that authority, without open belligerence or recalcitrance. They didn't. Regardless of how you feel about Jellico's command style, in that instance the crew was in the wrong.

 

[Paul Weaver]

The vast majority of people love Jellico, it seems to come from a military worship background. “The chain of command can do no wrong” and other such nonsense.

If you believe Picard was right in Peak Performance that starfleet isn’t military, then it’s clear Jellico was terrible. If you come in to manage a team, you need to take them with you, and if you don’t, that’s your failure. People obey orders because they respect the person giving that order and/or because their position on the ship (and salary outside of Trek) and in society requires it.

if you believe Picard was lying and that starfleet is indeed a military, then maybe a commander who goes out of his way to stamp his feet and say “because I said so” is a shining example of leadership.

Necheyev made it quite clear that not only was the Federation not at war, that there was no one for it to become war.

Jellico comes in and like many terrible managers decides to change things without understanding what he’s doing, without saying anything to Riker about his concerns and soliciting advice on how best to meet his objectives. He was a paranoid war hawk eager to start a war so he could play general, but even then despite him preparing for war rather than fighting for peace, he still has time to worry about a fish in an office.

He was a poor choice to put in charge of the Enterprise

But let’s look at the other side. Say you agree with his hawkish tendencies (which Necheyev didn’t seem to), and believe that starfleet is a military organisation and believe that if someone comes in and says “jump” you should do it immediately, you have to agree that his order to divert crew effort from essential war preparations to interior decoration shows how awful he is.


He wa willing to completely drain his staff before any battle even started just in case there was a battle (engineering staff working around the clock for 2 days - What happened to that shift pattern - for marginal improvements in efficiency)

He wastes time he should be using for strategic planning and for getting riker on board (all it would take would be an accident caused by an ensign who’d been working for 48 hours to remove the fish causing a plasma explosion in the ready room and riker would be in charge) in crawling around Jeffries tubes, arranging sculptures, and worrying about his sons artistic work. If he were really preparing for war, he’s being terrible.

When Troi suggests appears he wants to talk about duty rosters. 45 seconds later he decides he doesn’t have time to talk about them.

Jellico has no concern about his crew, has no plan in case he becomes incapacitated, is determined to change everything about how the crew works on the eve of battle, including reporting the ship, destaffing engineering, diverting resources to decoration. He won’t listen to council from Picard either, instead attacking his morale, and confirming that unlike his superior he has already decided his orders will fail.

He was better in part 2, as we saw how wrong he was (a solution was found by the enterprise crew), but he still sacked Riker for obeying his standing orders of pointing out potential mistakes.

At best he’s doing what he can to start a war, but it seems to me that he’s a cardassian agent, doing everything he can to get the flagship of the enterprise working at minimum efficiency.

 

[Mojochi]

The Federation has been to war plenty, & who do they send?

 

[Orphalesion]

The vast majority of people love Jellico, it seems to come from a military worship background. “The chain of command can do no wrong” and other such nonsense.

Yeah Jellico really seems to speak to the militarism in some people.

For what it's worth, I actually think of Starfleet having the role of the Federation's armed forces, imo the Dominion War demonstrated that beyond doubt.
But I still think Jellico was a terrible leader in that situation.