What Would Jellico Do?

[Mojochi]

I don't have any worship or love for Jellico. I think he's just another captain. I prefer Picard as captain. Actually, I prefer him over all the other captain's we've seen. He's kind of a dream boss imho. It just happens to be a touchy issue for people, when their favorite captain is pulled & this other guy gets to be everybody else's boss... a boss who frankly, I've come to professional understandings with far worse in my life.

It's all about perspective people. Everybody who sees this guy as some kind of villain is coloring their take with their personal disdain for anyone being authoritative imho, especially "The interloper". I just defend him because people want to vilify him. & are willing to pander to biases to do so

Later we see that as well as spending all that effort in relocating the fish? The reason he did It was to put the pictures up on the wall.

It's his office. He finds distracting what he finds distracting, & he shouldn't have to be distracted. If I didn't want it gurgling at me minutes before hostile negotiations, I'd have it relocated to. Rank aside, he has a right to own the place.

 

[Mojochi]

He is certainly antagonistic to some degree.

Is he? That's an interesting point. Let's examine that, for a change. I maintain that by TNG standards that's left open to interpretation too. Meaning you can take him as one or not, depending on how you want to. It's presented deliberately obscure for that purpose. I usually end up defending him as devil's advocate, just to represent objectivity, & almost always get labled a Jellico fanboy, but I'm not asking people to like or favor him. I only suggest seeing the issue from both sides, & that flies in the face of his haters. They're always the ones seeing it as black & white.

TNG has antagonists all the time, & they pretty much always have them for the purpose of giving our regulars someone to triumph over, in some way. They get beaten, exposed, or proven wrong, or at least more wrong than our regulars.

They get comeuppance like Mark Jameson, or they repent, like Bruce Maddox. They are exposed as frauds like Toby Russell, or criminals like Eric Pressman. That's their fairly commonly observed formula when it comes to fellow officers that are antagonists

They deliberately & blatantly didn't do that with Jellico. Where's Jellico's comeuppance or humbling? He replaces Riker & then has to bring him back to pilot a shuttle mission, but that's hardly a humbling. He isn't proven wrong by Riker as a commander. Riker isn't reinstated as #1 despite him. He isn't replaced as captain by Riker, who'd claimed he should've gotten the job instead. He doesn't fail and get upstaged by Riker.

Riker is never vindicated as the more right commander... because he's actually not in the right about Picard's capture. Jellico's decisions are what eventually got Picard back, not the "foolhardy" rescue Riker kept advocating for. If he's a shit captain, where's the moment of truth that unequivocally exposes him as that? If he really was a terrible captain then we shouldn't expect anything less than Riker & Co ridding themselves of him to save the day, their way without him.

By all rights, Jellico is entirely on their side, fighting for the same things they're fighting for, but because he's unwanted from the start, his mere presence deposing Picard, he's treated by the crew as an interloper. We're meant to at least acknowledge that. Which means he's not necessarily there to be against them, but they chose to be against him, by thinking he had no place there, least of all a place to change what the guy he replaced already had going on

I can't begin to tell you how sick I'd be of hearing "this is how we do things, & no one wants to change it" if I'd been dropped in to run some place where no one wanted me. It's called putting yourself in the other guy's shoes. Jellico Is categorically the other guy. That doesn't by default make him an antagonist.

 

[Oddish]

My take on the man is that he was better than the episode's bias made him seem. Look at how something as simple as returning Picard's book to him was treated: a person I was watching the episode with commented: "kicked out". Jellico did exactly what a person taking over an office should do when he finds some property his predecessor left behind: he returns it to its owner.

Likewise, most of his decisions were sound. He expected his people to dress professionally. He took steps to increase the ship's combat efficiency. He understood enough about Cardassians to know that (like all predators) they're easier to negotiate with when you're in a position of strength. And he understood that a black ops mission is just that: Riker was letting his feelings for Picard cloud his judgment. Additionally, he had no prejudice against androids at all, being the only person that we know of to give Data the promotion he had long deserved.

However, he wasn't uniformly strong. He was completely unwilling to listen to his subordinates (not just Riker, but the ship's department heads), people who knew more about the ship and its crew than he did. When Riker told him he didn't encourage his people to go out of their way for him, I think that was true. And, while Riker was wrong (IMO) about acknowledging Picard, he was entitled to point out an action that might be a mistake. Jellico relieved him for essentially doing his job.

 

[Mojochi]

These are really good points, & his main criticisms. Let's break them down

He was completely unwilling to listen to his subordinates (not just Riker, but the ship's department heads),

But can we say with certainty that it was unwillingness, or was it instead inability or an inadvisable act to do so? He knows more about the mission & what might need to be done for it, including the unpleasant hardships. It's at least possible that he hadn't the time or latitude to give them the audience they felt they should have, simply for dissent from what he considered necessary

Besides, he wasn't completely unwilling. He deliberately sought ought a department head to ask advice on who to pilot the shuttle mission, & despite what must've been a decision that he'd have rather avoided, he took that recommendation

people who knew more about the ship and its crew than he did.

Do we know that they did though? He seemed to know just about every aspect down to each minute detail before he even started. He runs his own ship & has fully studied theirs & its crew. It clearly ain't his 1st rodeo lol. He seemed more prepared than any officer they'd ever encountered imho. It's entirely possible he knew what their issues would be, if he ever didn't heed their claims, & already accounted for them

When Riker told him he didn't encourage his people to go out of their way for him, I think that was true.

It's certainly true that the crew didn't feel encouraged by how he handled them (except maybe Data lol) but the question to ask then is what does Riker consider encouragement? He follows up that claim by saying there was no joy in anything. Well... Dude, Picard's being tortured to death. Cardassians are making moves to seize Federation worlds. Starfleet is on the hook for illegal espionage, infiltration, & assault. The ship could find itself at the spear's tip of battle, when everyone gets dragged into a war costing millions of lives

Maybe making sure everyone isn't wound up a bit, & not feeling joyfulness in their day isn't feasible or the chief most concern. Maybe a fair share of duress going around is the state of things... & everybody gets a bite

And, while Riker was wrong (IMO) about acknowledging Picard, he was entitled to point out an action that might be a mistake. Jellico relieved him for essentially doing his job.

He has a duty to point out a possible mistake. (Wherein he was maybe not ethically wrong, but situationally wrong imo) He doesn't have the latitude to stand up over the man, pulling his uniform down, Picard manuver style, barking down dissent & doubts about his entire judgment altogether, thus directly & intimidatingly challenging his authority in front of another senior officer. That's grounds for being replaced imho.

Now if I were in his shoes, would I have at least tried to sound a little more compassionate about the hardships being handed down? Surely. He undoubtedly comes out harshly... It could be any number of factors as to why. Picard has come down harshly on some ocassions... & Riker himself does it quite often, by my account. I'd hazard a guess that Sam Lavelle's opinion of Riker isn't much different than Riker's is of Jellico. We can all be harsh.

but I'd also be a little resentful if nobody aboard was agreeable to anything ordered, & the general demeanor I encountered was this old man needs to leave well enough alone, admiral's orders be damned #NotMyCaptain

 

[Ragitsu]

Is he?

Yep. At the minimum, he couldn't scrape together sixty to two-hundred and forty seconds to smooth things over before moving ahead. Whether that was the fault of the script writer misunderstanding/neglecting to address basic human nature (for the sake of drama) or meant to be a genuine character flaw is up in the air, but that's antagonistic in practice either way. Me, I tend to blame the friction on the 1990s (an age when "darker and grittier" tales and anti-heroes enjoyed a resurgence of popularity...sometimes taken to semi-comical or merely illogical extremes when viewed in hindsight); after all, in a few years, we'd see "heroic" characters in another Star Trek series commit war crimes. Jellico's unnecessarily tactless interpersonal strategy is almost quaint in comparison to what was yet to come.

 

[Mojochi]

Yeah, but because someone feels antagonized doesn't necessarily mean the other party was legitimately being antagonistic. It's a matter of perspective. The time shortage might not have been the entire reason why

 

[Ragitsu]

Maybe Riker felt perturbed with Jellico's command style because of his own experience with an arrogant and callous CO. Clearly, Jellico is no Pressman, but...in the earliest stages of their respective operations, both men might have seemed very much alike.

 

[Takeru]

I think the real reason was that Riker was pissy because he thought he should have gotten command of the Enterprise even if that didn't make sense. There was no reason for starfleet to hand the flagship to an officer who never had his own command. Geordie complained for 3 minutes but other than that everyone but Riker was able to work with Jellico even if they preferred Picard.

Jellico was a competent commander who successfully completed the mission, objectively he did nothing wrong, he was even willing to swallow his pride and asked Riker to pilot the shuttle while Riker acted like a smug asshole.

 

[Ragitsu]

There was no reason for starfleet to hand the flagship to an officer who never had his own command.

In addition to the numerous times Riker was offered his own command, he also comported himself well enough during the events of The Best of Both Worlds. The fellow is no greenhorn.

 

[Takeru]

In addition to the numerous times Riker was offered his own command, he also comported himself well enough during the events of The Best of Both Worlds. The fellow is no greenhorn.

He's an experienced XO not CO and he would have most likely screwed up the mission with his attempt to save Picard by sending a team. Starfleet made the right choice putting Jellico in command, it's pretty obvious looking at the episode and how it played out.

 

[Ragitsu]

He's an experienced XO not CO and he would have most likely screwed up the mission with his attempt to save Picard by sending a team. Starfleet made the right choice putting Jellico in command, it's pretty obvious looking at the episode and how it played out.

Arguably, the experienced XO of the Federation's flagship is equivalent to a CO of pretty much any other starship.

 

[Orphalesion]

Again, I say that restructuring a crew during a potential crisis was not a good command decision, particularly in that it only happened because Jellico wanted it so.

As for Riker, well, there's also the fact that Riker tends to get pissy with anybody who dares to suggest that the Enterprise D as it is might not be the best of all starships and his adopted papa might not be the best of all captains.
Like remember how he bellowed at Ro for saying that she was only on the Enterprise because she had no other choice?
So of course if a new captain shows up, who dares to take the place of his surrogate father, and who then changes things...well no matter what Captain that would have been, Riker would likely have had some difficulty adjusting.

 

[Ragitsu]

Again, I say that restructuring a crew during a potential crisis was not a good command decision, particularly in that it only happened because Jellico wanted it so.

As for Riker, well, there's also the fact that Riker tends to get pissy with anybody who dares to suggest that the Enterprise D as it is might not be the best of all starships and his adopted papa might not be the best of all captains.
Like remember how he bellowed at Ro for saying that she was only on the Enterprise because she had no other choice?
So of course if a new captain shows up, who dares to take the place of his surrogate father, and who then changes things...well no matter what Captain that would have been, Riker would likely have had some difficulty adjusting.

That is because the Enterprise-D was conceived - from the ground up - as a community...a family. There are times I wish the atmosphere from Seasons 1 and 2 hadn't been mostly abandoned.

 

[Ragitsu]

I run my ship how I run my ship. You want to investigate me, roll the dice and take your chances. I eat breakfast 80 light-years away from 4000 Cardassians who are trained to kill me. So don't think for one second think you're gonna come down here, flash a position on the flagship, and make me nervous.


Son, we live in a world that has demilitarized zones. And those DMZs have to be guarded by men with phasers. Who's gonna do it? You? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Picard and you curse me. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: That Picard's death, while tragic, will probably save lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me by that zone. You need me there.


I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I'd prefer you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to.

 

[Mojochi]

Again, I say that restructuring a crew during a potential crisis was not a good command decision, particularly in that it only happened because Jellico wanted it so.

We don't know that though. Frankly, replacing a seasoned captain, who personally built their crew from the ground up, & served with them intact for years, with some other captain & then sending it off to engage in hostile negotiations is the primary bad call, & there might be unpleasant fallout from that decision which kind of forces Jellico's hand. If anyone is to blame for this hardship of a "New captain" you assign it to the people forcing it to happen, & forcing Picard to take on an illegal infiltration mission

Arguably, the experienced XO of the Federation's flagship is equivalent to a CO of pretty much any other starship.

I don't necessarily buy that. It's an undoubtedly great grooming situation for sure, especially when you know you have someone who is going to be good at that grooming like Picard, but "There really is no substitute for holding the reigns" Picard spells it out in The Icarus Factor. All being the XO of the flagship really amounts to is notoriety & glamor. It's not any equivalent to the center seat of commanding a ship.

Maybe Riker felt perturbed with Jellico's command style because of his own experience with an arrogant and callous CO. Clearly, Jellico is no Pressman, but...in the earliest stages of their respective operations, both men might have seemed very much alike.

I very much agree. Riker has a hair trigger for unchecked authority imho, stemming from his Pegasus shame. He's got him some trust issues for sure. He frankly needs to get out of the XO business if ever there's no Picard, & move up. I like to think it's why he's so damn protective of Picard. Picard is more than just the captain. He's the mentor, & the leader he's been looking for, one who has ethics & morals he can believe in. It might also be why he's hesitant to leave him behind. The man is his moral barometer, & there'd be a natural fear that you'd lose your way without him. It might be a reason why he always looks so damn miserable & unsettled when Picard is missing or presumed dead, & Riker gets thrust into command. He hit the jackpot where he is. So some other guy who isn't his dream boss is going to present an issue, when they too deserve the same respect & latitude.

 

[Oddish]

It's certainly true that the crew didn't feel encouraged by how he handled them (except maybe Data lol) but the question to ask then is what does Riker consider encouragement? He follows up that claim by saying there was no joy in anything. Well... Dude, Picard's being tortured to death. Cardassians are making moves to seize Federation worlds. Starfleet is on the hook for illegal espionage, infiltration, & assault. The ship could find itself at the spear's tip of battle, when everyone gets dragged into a war costing millions of lives.

Maybe making sure everyone isn't wound up a bit, & not feeling joyfulness in their day isn't feasible or the chief most concern. Maybe a fair share of duress going around is the state of things... & everybody gets a bite

I agree with that, which is why I didn't reference that part of Riker's statement.

He has a duty to point out a possible mistake. (Wherein he was maybe not ethically wrong, but situationally wrong imo) He doesn't have the latitude to stand up over the man, pulling his uniform down, Picard manuver style, barking down dissent & doubts about his entire judgment altogether, thus directly & intimidatingly challenging his authority in front of another senior officer. That's grounds for being replaced imho.

Jellico raised his voice first, accusing Riker of questioning his command decisions. So really, they were both out of line.

The irony is that there was no command decision to question. Whether to acknowledge Picard or disavow him wasn't either Riker or Jellico's choice to make. It was presumably Adm. Necheyev's call.

Jellico was a competent commander who successfully completed the mission, objectively he did nothing wrong...

Again, I say that restructuring a crew during a potential crisis was not a good command decision, particularly in that it only happened because Jellico wanted it

Objectively, maybe it was within Jellico's rights to make the change. That doesn't mean that demanding the change immediately and unilaterally was a good idea .

run my ship how I run my ship. You want to investigate me, roll the dice and take your chances. I eat breakfast 80 light-years away from 4000 Cardassians who are trained to kill me. So don't think for one second think you're gonna come down here, flash a position on the flagship, and make me nervous.

Jellico and Jessop were definitely cut from the same cloth.

 

[Mojochi]

The irony is that there was no command decision to question. Whether to acknowledge Picard or disavow him wasn't either Riker or Jellico's choice to make. It was presumably Adm. Necheyev's call.

Very true, & that's exactly what Jellico was doing, a command decision to send a recommendation to her to reject Lemec's proposal & deploy ships to the border. Riker stood opposed to making that recommendation, in lieu of one to protect Picard with an admission he was acting under orders, in a ill-conceived attempt to grant him POW status... Which it might not even do, because admitting he was under orders doesn't directly make a declaration of war. The UFP isn't likely to do that to protect Picard. Picard & superiors just look guilty of treaty violation, with that admission, not acting as enemy combatants in a war. It's a bad idea all around IMHO

Jellico does then up his tone in what I'd call "impassioned" & possibly defensive, to respond, by pointing out why it's dumb, because Riker had objected two or three times by then. Then Riker blows up at him, & challenges him in front of Troi, going on about him putting Picard's life on the negotiating block, which isn't even an accurate criticism. Jellico was just recommending another couse of action than implicating all of Starfleet in illegal infiltration. He gets accused of wholesaling out Picard's death.

End of duty for #1 lol

 

[Orphalesion]

We don't know that though.

I doubt "change the Enterprise to a four shift rotation" was on the mission statement.

Frankly, replacing a seasoned captain, who personally built their crew from the ground up, & served with them intact for years, with some other captain & then sending it off to engage in hostile negotiations is the primary bad call, & there might be unpleasant fallout from that decision which kind of forces Jellico's hand. If anyone is to blame for this hardship of a "New captain" you assign it to the people forcing it to happen, & forcing Picard to take on an illegal infiltration mission

So let's blame everybody except darling little Jellico who can do no wrong?

 

[Oddish]

So let's blame everybody except darling little Jellico who can do no wrong?

Let's not. Rather, let's simply acknowledge him as an effective commander, but not without his flaws.

 

[Orphalesion]

Let's not. Rather, let's simply acknowledge him as an effective commander, but not without his flaws.

I already have agreed with you in this thread that creating a fourth shift would have been alright if it had happened after the whole crisis had passed (if he had remained captain) and that nobody could have complained about it.
But I still think that it wasn't a good thing to do during the crisis.