Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 4x02 - "Anomaly"

[eschaton]

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. I just don't think they have really shown that Gray is separate from just memories and "real". I guess the holoship thing is one bit of proof, but they haven't even tried to explain how Gray is still there and why he is any different from the other symbiote memories. WHY isn't he just a collection of past host memories like all the rest of the symbiote memories?

And I think it does matter if it is the same Gray or not. Sure you can program a synth and, based on the degree of self-awareness shown by the most advanced synths (for example, not those on Mars), they should be considered alive/people. But just having a living synth with Gray's memories doesn't make it Gray. It needs to be an actual "transference"/copy of the Gray entity while alive or recently enough after death, or an exact reproduction (memoires and brain structure) of Gray with sufficient fidelity to the original entity, otherwise it is just like Data holding the colonists memories and records from before the Crystalline entity, or B-4 holding Data's memories, or any Trill when they move into a new host they have the old memories but aren't that person anymore.

It will be interesting to see if Discovery goes in the direction, at all, of exploring if Gray is a different person now than before. Will he feel different? Will he see Adira differently? Will Adira see him differently? They have touched on this a little in previous Treks, but I don't think they have done it from this precise angle.

Gray's existence is an allegory for transness, IMHO. We're supposed to trust Adira that Gray is real for the same reason we're supposed to trust trans people when they tell you what their gender is.

I agree that they have become too conflict adverse. I think they have rounded off the more interesting corners of their characters and their interactions.

Part of the show that I'm really souring on now is how samey everyone feels now (except Stamets being kind of a jerk sometimes). Everyone is trying their best to get along, sometimes stumbles, but when they do they have no issue opening up their heart to a confidant, who listens attentively and gives them sage advice as a good ally. This is...boring.

I mean, lemme turn to DS9, which I think has still so far been the highlight of character writing in Trek. You have Odo, who is a stoic loner who struggles to even discuss his feelings. You have Worf, who's somewhat similar but adds layers of repression on top of it. You have O'Brien, who just keeps his head down and tries to muddle through things, despite being put through unbelievable trauma. Someone like Quark is generally too busy (and too conceited) to waste time with being introspective. Or there's (later) Jadzia, who for the most part is just enjoying life and having fun. That's a lot of different ways of dealing with feelings.

 

[jackoverfull]

Yet that would be a distinction without a difference. Assuming it is a copy, it was implanted in Spock's body at the end of the movie, and thus it would be a "copy" of Spock from the end of ST3 forward through Into Darkness. The body might be the original, but the consciousness would be a "copy". Yet no one complains about it being a copy of Spock. I honestly do not understand why it would be different for Picard, other than people just like to dump on things.

no idea. Some people are a bit scared at the idea of copying themselves I guess...

which is in fact a very interesting topic that Star Trek should probably revisit soon, along with the “at what point is something alive” one.

A bit of an aside, but I do feel increasingly that Discovery over-learned the lessons of the bad response to Season 1 and is now way too conflict averse.

I mean, in this episode, Tilly snaps at Adira once, and is given advice to lay off them because they look up to her. Then later in the episode, she tells Culber she needs counseling. It took me time to put two and two together - that the inference is the only possible reason Tilly could be short with Adira is because she's not mentally well.

That's...awful. Conflict is a normal part of human relationships, not a sign of mental illness.

I hope this is not the case.

It will be interesting to see if Discovery goes in the direction, at all, of exploring if Gray is a different person now than before. Will he feel different? Will he see Adira differently? Will Adira see him differently? They have touched on this a little in previous Treks, but I don't think they have done it from this precise angle.

they touched on this with culber's resurrection...and almost immediately totally dropped it.

 

[jackoverfull]

Gray's existence is an allegory for transness, IMHO. We're supposed to trust Adira that Gray is real for the same reason we're supposed to trust trans people when they tell you what their gender is.

if this is the case I don’t feel it’s a very good allegory.

 

[Ometiklan]

...Tal's transfer from Trill humanoid to Earth-human host was also without (recorded and acknowledged) precedent, if I remember correctly.

Riker was able to host a symbiote and integrate its memories. That it was a short term bonding was due to immune system rejection and not an inherent incompatibility with the Trill, so not really unprecedented, just longer lived.

Gray's existence is an allegory for transness, IMHO. We're supposed to trust Adira that Gray is real for the same reason we're supposed to trust trans people when they tell you what their gender is.

if this is the case I don’t feel it’s a very good allegory.

I have to agree with jackoverfull. To accept Gray as who he identifies as is one thing, but that is totally different than agreeing he is the original person. If that is what they are going for, it is getting lost to me in the how is Gray even an independent entity.

 

[eschaton]

I have to agree with jackoverfull. To accept Gray as who he identifies as is one thing, but that is totally different than agreeing he is the original person. If that is what they are going for, it is getting lost to me in the how is Gray even an independent entity.

Michelle Paradise has been explicit that Grey's quest for "visibility" is meant as a trans metaphor.

 

[DEWLine]

So we'll roll with editorial metaphor, and figure out the in-story mechanics as we go.

 

[Char Kais]

Surfing Space Waves in Star Trek Discovery vs TNG

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[NCC-73515]

Grin is great as always XD

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Mirror Tuvix]

 

[Commander Troi]

OK? I'm hoping future students have to memorize the epitaph and write long essays theorizing the meaning.

There will be a statue of your buttocks right next to the one of Miles O'Brien.

I nearly hurt myself trying not to laugh too loudly since my hubby's still asleep!

 

[Bay17]

I hope it's not a mystery box. Just a spatial anomaly that will be explained (enough) in the next couple episodes, and then the deal is to try to figure out how to stop it or circumvent it.

Climate change or COVID are not mystery boxes, they're just disasters that require loads more teamwork than we seem to be capable of. That's, I think, where they're going with this story.

I agree. The coming together of the Federation is about us all coming together to tackle natural events

 

[Borgminister]

After watching Umbrella Academy with my 29 year old son, we caught episode 1 and part of 2 of Discovery, and he was bored stiff by the pacing, which by contrast was exceedingly slow, it's true. I'll have to watch the new season of Discovery solo I guess, being the lifelong, senior citizen Trek fan that I am.

But then we binged Prodigy, which moved along much more crisply and held his (and my) interest more, even with the Janeway explanatory moments and child-centered nature of the show. Pacing was so much better...

 

[thribs]

That umbrella academy show is very misleading. It has nothing to do with zombies.

 

[nic3636]

That umbrella academy show is very misleading. It has nothing to do with zombies.

Maybe it’s a prequel ?

 

[dupersuper]

That umbrella academy show is very misleading. It has nothing to do with zombies.

Or umbrellas...

 

[137th Gebirg]

There are lots of umbrellas in that show (great show, too). It's one of those ubiquitous things that pop up occasionally, much like the Pennyfarthing bicycle used in The Prisoner (another great show).

 

[Commander Troi]

There are lots of umbrellas in that show (great show, too). It's one of those ubiquitous things that pop up occasionally, much like the Pennyfarthing bicycle used in The Prisoner (another great show).

Ooh! I'll have time (and painkillers!) to re-watch The Prisoner after surgery!

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

That was quite a ride. By the time I finally got back to my DSC Season 4 DVD set, I actually had to look up "Kobayashi Maru" in Memory Alpha to refamiliarize myself with what happened.

I seem to remember the subject of tractor beams coming up in connection with some episode of some streaming series, or maybe TrekLit, but clearly it wasn't this thread. And I'd imagine that the in-universe reason a tractor beam wasn't even mentioned for retrieval of Book's ship was because the anomaly would have rendered it useless.

Spoiler

So it can change course. That suggests it's either artificial, or a life form (possibly even sentient)