I would recommend it because they really didn't chose when the Genesis device was detonated.
Only that Starfleet's star charts from the Ceti Alpha system suck because the Reliant couldn't figure out a planet exploded!
What are your top 3 Star Trek films?
- Thread starter Trelane_Squire_of_Gothos
- Start date
Eh, might as well do it now. Some of it, anyway. This is a quick-and-dirty list.
1. Khan recognizes Chekov. "Space Seed" is a first season episode, Chekov doesn't show up until the second season. Some have argued it's possible Chekov was in the lower decks or we just didn't see Khan's run-in with him... but I don't think Harve Bennett had that in mind. Fresh off having watched every TOS episode, Harve Bennett knew Chekov had a science background, it was 15 years later, so it would've made sense to him that Chekov could be the First Officer of a science vessel by that point, so Chekov just fit what Harve Bennett needed: someone with a science background who wasn't Spock and could warn Captain Terrell about Khan. The needs of the story outweighed the needs of continuity.
2. The Reliant headed to Ceti Alpha V, thinking it was Ceti Alpha VI. They couldn't discover in a scan that one of the planets in the Ceti Alpha system was missing? Also: if Ceti Alpha VI's explosion was powerful enough to knock Ceti Alpha V to where Ceti Alpha VI used to be, then it should've destroyed everything on the planet's surface. Khan would have no chance of survival, cargo bays and genetically-engineered intellect or not.
3. From the context of 1982, I can't think of a single reason why Kirk would give up the Enterprise again, after fighting so hard to get it back in TMP. His obsession with the Enterprise in TMP crossed over into borderline unhealthy. If I'm watching this in '82 (and I didn't, this film came out two months before I even turned 3), I'd be thinking "What the Hell happened?"
That's for starters. That's also why I said "later". I know you're new-ish around here, but I can go very detailed. It's why I roll my eyes when people try to pick apart DSC. If someone has their heart set on it, they can pick apart anything, regardless of quality.
TWOK is my favorite Star Trek movie because I enjoy the experience. I'm not out looking to tear it apart. Some people with other Trek -- doesn't have to be DSC -- are looking to tear the Star Trek in question (whatever it is) apart.
So, now, like I said, I can do the rest later. I don't feel like typing a novel right now.
1. Khan recognizes Chekov. "Space Seed" is a first season episode, Chekov doesn't show up until the second season. Some have argued it's possible Chekov was in the lower decks or we just didn't see Khan's run-in with him... but I don't think Harve Bennett had that in mind. Fresh off having watched every TOS episode, Harve Bennett knew Chekov had a science background, it was 15 years later, so it would've made sense to him that Chekov could be the First Officer of a science vessel by that point, so Chekov just fit what Harve Bennett needed: someone with a science background who wasn't Spock and could warn Captain Terrell about Khan. The needs of the story outweighed the needs of continuity.
2. The Reliant headed to Ceti Alpha V, thinking it was Ceti Alpha VI. They couldn't discover in a scan that one of the planets in the Ceti Alpha system was missing? Also: if Ceti Alpha VI's explosion was powerful enough to knock Ceti Alpha V to where Ceti Alpha VI used to be, then it should've destroyed everything on the planet's surface. Khan would have no chance of survival, cargo bays and genetically-engineered intellect or not.
3. From the context of 1982, I can't think of a single reason why Kirk would give up the Enterprise again, after fighting so hard to get it back in TMP. His obsession with the Enterprise in TMP crossed over into borderline unhealthy. If I'm watching this in '82 (and I didn't, this film came out two months before I even turned 3), I'd be thinking "What the Hell happened?"
That's for starters. That's also why I said "later". I know you're new-ish around here, but I can go very detailed. It's why I roll my eyes when people try to pick apart DSC. If someone has their heart set on it, they can pick apart anything, regardless of quality.
TWOK is my favorite Star Trek movie because I enjoy the experience. I'm not out looking to tear it apart. Some people with other Trek -- doesn't have to be DSC -- are looking to tear the Star Trek in question (whatever it is) apart.
So, now, like I said, I can do the rest later. I don't feel like typing a novel right now.
Last edited:
No need to continue. I get it.
Some of the irregularities from Discovery are a hard pill to swallow though. I just can't put it in the same camp as TWOK in that respect.
To prove a similar point, I once made a list of over 20 highly questionable elements from TWOK. TUC is even more riddled with inane foolishness. Don’t even get me started on TVH.
People pick and choose what to whine about based on their own biases. It’s fine if you don’t like something, but don’t try to “justify” your dislike by holding the object of your dissatisfaction to completely different standards than you’d set for a series of film you “like.”
For example, don’t tell me [insert post-Nemesis Trek production of choice here] is too violent/pew-pew/action oriented/militaristic/Not Gene’s Vision if you’re going to say TWOK is your favorite Star Trek movie. That is just disingenuous horseshit. It’s ok not to like [insert post-Nemesis Trek production of choice here] and we are all entitled to an opinion. But the mistake people make is trying to JUSTIFY that opinion as fact using inconsistent standards.
I see mostly consistent standards on here, but different people have different sensibilities and weigh their priorities differently from one another.
I know a couple hypocrites (not you). Stick around here long enough and you'll notice what some people say doesn't match what they said before as we go from one Star Trek production to the next.
I changed some positions of mine, but I own the fact that I did. Other people won't do that and will try to say "Yeah, but that's different!" "Yeah, but that's different!" is another way of saying "I'll let something slide in something I like that I won't let slide in something I don't! I know it, you know it, but I'm just not going to say it, so we can keep this argument going!"
Last edited:
Indeed. TWOK being the gold standard of Trek pretty makes it very difficult to take a wide swath of critiques around new Trek seriously. TWOK was the game changer when it first came out and does a lot of what current Trek is accused of.
Respectfully, I’d suggest that you don’t have enough accumulated data to make a full assessment there quite yet.
I have to dredge up an old post of mine. This one was an instant classic.
-- cutting and pasting --
"Parody: Modern Trekkies If The Wrath of Khan Was New"
- by Lord Garth
I don't get why Kirk isn't in command of the Enterprise anymore after he just got it back! That doesn't make any sense! Minus one point.
What's with the new uniforms? They don't even look like Star Trek uniforms! Minus another point. That's two points down so far!
Kirk collects antiques?! Antiques?! Star Trek is a show about the future!!!!! Three points down.
And what was this about the 23rd Century? Who cares what Century it takes place in?! I can't believe this! Just give me a good story! That's just fan-service putting up "In the 23rd Century". Only the fans will get that! Four points down!
Klingons! Again! In the simulation! Can't they come up with anything else? These hacks! Why did they reuse the footage from the last movie? They're not even trying! Five points down.
Don't even get me started on Khan! He looks like a rock star now. Why is Star Trek trying so hard to be trendy? And what happened to his followers? They don't look anything like from before! These filmmakers don't care about Star Trek at all! Have they even watched it?! Checkov wasn't even there yet in the episode with Khan! If they'd watched it, they would've known! Six points down!
Violence for violence's sake! The Ceti Eel, explosions everywhere! And all that gore! Again! Star Trek is trying too hard to be trendy! I'm telling you. Ever since Carrie it's just been getting bloodier and bloodier. How much more gory can these movies possibly get? Seven points down!
I don't know about this Saavik. Women on the command track? Star Trek's been taken over by feminists! What's next? Are they going to have a woman captain? Give me a break! Eight points down.
That ungrateful David! Doesn't he know his father is the legendary James T. Kirk?! In my day, I called my father Sir! Yes, that's right, I called him Sir! And what the Hell is this? This kid growing up without a father? It's like Kramer vs. Kramer all over again! You know what? Don't even get me started on that movie again! Nine points down.
HOW THE HELL CAN THEY KILL SPOCK?! That doesn't make any sense! Shouldn't Scotty be the one taking care of Engineering?! So stupid. These people don't even know how to write. That moment at the end between Kirk and Spock, I don't even think that moment was even earned! It's too emotional! Spock is supposed to be logical! These people don't know the TV series! Spock expressing emotion would completely embarrass him! Why should Kirk be so broken up? People die all the time. And the pipes at the end. Flies in the face of Gene Roddenberry! He doesn't believe in God! It shouldn't be a religious funeral! I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!! THIS IS A DISGRACE!!!!!! FUCK THE WRATH OF KHAN!!!!
10 points down!!!!!!!!!!
On a scale of 1 to 10, I give Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan a 0. A ZERO!!!! Harve Bennett and Nick Meyer are trying to destroy Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek!!!! But it'll never work. It'll never last. And I don't want to hear about how "It's 1982!" No. This isn't real Star Trek! You want to watch real Star Trek?! Turn on the TV. Don't go to the movies!!!! Boycott this film at every turn. It's the Trekkie thing to do.
-- cutting and pasting --
"Parody: Modern Trekkies If The Wrath of Khan Was New"
- by Lord Garth
I don't get why Kirk isn't in command of the Enterprise anymore after he just got it back! That doesn't make any sense! Minus one point.
What's with the new uniforms? They don't even look like Star Trek uniforms! Minus another point. That's two points down so far!
Kirk collects antiques?! Antiques?! Star Trek is a show about the future!!!!! Three points down.
And what was this about the 23rd Century? Who cares what Century it takes place in?! I can't believe this! Just give me a good story! That's just fan-service putting up "In the 23rd Century". Only the fans will get that! Four points down!
Klingons! Again! In the simulation! Can't they come up with anything else? These hacks! Why did they reuse the footage from the last movie? They're not even trying! Five points down.
Don't even get me started on Khan! He looks like a rock star now. Why is Star Trek trying so hard to be trendy? And what happened to his followers? They don't look anything like from before! These filmmakers don't care about Star Trek at all! Have they even watched it?! Checkov wasn't even there yet in the episode with Khan! If they'd watched it, they would've known! Six points down!
Violence for violence's sake! The Ceti Eel, explosions everywhere! And all that gore! Again! Star Trek is trying too hard to be trendy! I'm telling you. Ever since Carrie it's just been getting bloodier and bloodier. How much more gory can these movies possibly get? Seven points down!
I don't know about this Saavik. Women on the command track? Star Trek's been taken over by feminists! What's next? Are they going to have a woman captain? Give me a break! Eight points down.
That ungrateful David! Doesn't he know his father is the legendary James T. Kirk?! In my day, I called my father Sir! Yes, that's right, I called him Sir! And what the Hell is this? This kid growing up without a father? It's like Kramer vs. Kramer all over again! You know what? Don't even get me started on that movie again! Nine points down.
HOW THE HELL CAN THEY KILL SPOCK?! That doesn't make any sense! Shouldn't Scotty be the one taking care of Engineering?! So stupid. These people don't even know how to write. That moment at the end between Kirk and Spock, I don't even think that moment was even earned! It's too emotional! Spock is supposed to be logical! These people don't know the TV series! Spock expressing emotion would completely embarrass him! Why should Kirk be so broken up? People die all the time. And the pipes at the end. Flies in the face of Gene Roddenberry! He doesn't believe in God! It shouldn't be a religious funeral! I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!! THIS IS A DISGRACE!!!!!! FUCK THE WRATH OF KHAN!!!!
10 points down!!!!!!!!!!
On a scale of 1 to 10, I give Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan a 0. A ZERO!!!! Harve Bennett and Nick Meyer are trying to destroy Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek!!!! But it'll never work. It'll never last. And I don't want to hear about how "It's 1982!" No. This isn't real Star Trek! You want to watch real Star Trek?! Turn on the TV. Don't go to the movies!!!! Boycott this film at every turn. It's the Trekkie thing to do.
I will just have to take your word of it.
You forgot a few:
Have Bennett and Mick Meyer are not Star Trek fans and don't care about Star Trek. They're trying to do their own thing and they are destroying it as a result
The new uniforms are totally militaristic, as is the tone of the film, which doesn't match with Gene's Vision
It's dystopian for civilians to have inherent mistrust of Star Fleet, as the Regula I staff indicates. What happened to our positive view of the future???
On that same note, Marcus refers to SF as "the military" ....and we all know SF is NOT A MILITARY!!!!!1!1!!
It's also dystopian for Star Fleet to have a battle simulation like this. After all, Star Fleet is strictly about exploring and negotiating. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a simulation where you have to negotiate with the Klingons for 5 hours?
This is complete character assassination of Kirk. How could he make such blatant and incompetent mistakes associated with the regulations?
To expand on the note you made about gore- there's people dying horribly at every turn. Horrible burns, creatures burrowing through brains, suicides, dead people with slashed throats hanging from ceilings, people engulfed in flames and explosions...I can't even bring my kids to go see this movie! Star Trek is supposed to be a family show, not some horror-gore fest just for the sake of being "edgy" and "modern"
Anyway, clearly Star Trek is heading in the wrong direction with this film. I guess they just don't care about the fans or about Gene Roddenberry any longer....but it's very clear that this movie was simply not made for me. I'm going to go watch Requiem for Methuselah now. Maybe some day they'll make another TV series that is all about sitting around, sipping tea, contemplating yet another fine negotiation.....one can only dream at this point.
Person A: I want slow and boring.
Person B: What about "To boldly go where no one has gone before" or "The human adventure is just beginning"? Is boldly going slow and boring? Is the human adventure supposed to be slow and boring?
Person A: Yeah, but that's different!
Person B: What about "To boldly go where no one has gone before" or "The human adventure is just beginning"? Is boldly going slow and boring? Is the human adventure supposed to be slow and boring?
Person A: Yeah, but that's different!
It's funny because (in the interest of getting on track to the topic)...I love the "slow and boring" TMP, but I also love the action-packed 2009 film.
I just like what I like. I don't try to rationalize it and categorize it to justify my opinion. I may LOVE some "action packed" Star Trek (TWOK, FC, 2009) and I may really not like other action based Star Trek (INS, ID, etc). It doesn't need to make sense, and I don't need to prove to anyone how "right" my opinions are. They're just my opinions. Nothing more...nothing less.
I think the biggest thing when it comes to discussing "good" and "bad" and everything in between is the use of a lot of false dichotomy. As @1001001 and you note it is personal opinion. But the false dichotomy that gets presented of is/is not Star Trek makes it very difficult to have a discussion of the actual merits of the films in question.
Everything that officially says "Star Trek" is 'Star Trek". That particular debate is stupid and pointless.
It's ALL Star Trek.
Now, people are free to discuss whether or not they like a particular show, episode, film without the burden of that dichotomy.
It's all very simple.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan - I mean what more can I say other than Khan!!!
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country and First Contact.
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country and First Contact.
Similar threads
