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Spoilers Captain Archer's Response in Cogenitor

I agree, slavery is disgusting. It can be argued that the moral response would have been for Archer to grant Charles's request for asylum. But of course, that would have compromised his mission, which was peaceful first contact. And, had the Vissians chosen to get nasty, it would have forced Archer into a conflict he couldn't hope to win.

I'm not saying Archer did the right thing, throwing Charles under the bus. I'm just saying I understand his dilemma.
 
I agree, slavery is disgusting. It can be argued that the moral response would have been for Archer to grant Charles's request for asylum. But of course, that would have compromised his mission, which was peaceful first contact. And, had the Vissians chosen to get nasty, it would have forced Archer into a conflict he couldn't hope to win.

I'm not saying Archer did the right thing, throwing Charles under the bus. I'm just saying I understand his dilemma.

Archer almost died in his very first mission "post broken bow", if not for the serendipitous arrival of the alien ship, Archer et al. would have been drained of their fluids.
 
Yes, but don't you know-being human is bad ;)

I've learned not to have an unrealistic view of my species. If you ever wondered why communism failed, it's because it ran on the principle that people are more virtuous than they really are.

Archer almost died in his very first mission "post broken bow", if not for the serendipitous arrival of the alien ship, Archer et al. would have been drained of their fluids.

Space is dangerous. If a fight had occured, Enterprise would have lost. And even if there was no fight, the Vissian government would have undoubtedly been quite upset. Earth would have lost a potential ally and friend. And, considering that the Vissians might be the ones who gave us photonic torpedoes when we needed them...
 
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Space is dangerous. If a fight had occured, Enterprise would have lost. And even if there was no fight, the Vissian government would have undoubtedly been quite upset. Earth would have lost a potential ally and friend. And, considering that the Vissians might be the ones who gave us photonic torpedoes when we needed them...

I disagree a people who have such low regard for the dignity of their own kind must have more nasty things in their society that we have yet to discover. It is better to keep one's distance from people like that until you know more about their philosophy...

"To Serve Man" sometimes turns out to be a cookbook...
 
I've learned not to have an unrealistic view of my species. If you ever wondered why communism failed, it's because it ran on the principle that people are more virtuous than they really are.
By the same token, Marcus Aurelius's writings can still be useful to current humans.
 
Isn't that what actually happened?

Very likely. Not certain, though. It's even been theorized that the Vissians were how Starfleet gained photon torpedoes in Season 3. They did have the technology, after all.

Precisely, Archer's groveling got him nothing, except a loss of dignity.

In his defense, he wasn't expecting Charles to do when thrown under the figurative bus, what a person normally only does when thrown under a literal bus, i.e. die.
 
If things with the Vissians didn't ultimately go well, they at least didn't fall apart entirely. There's still room for negotiations and for humanity to be a positive influence upon the Vissians, and them upon us.

This is how diplomacy works. You don't always get everything you want, but if you can at least keep the lines of communication open then you haven't failed entirely.
 
The problem with Archer is that he's a loose cannon you never know which way he's gonna fire. With the tandarans he was completely uncooperative even refused to help them with the cabal even though that's a common enemy, He organized a jailbreak and was lucky the tandarans didn't have the means to defend themselves otherwise the enterprise might have been blown out of the sky in retaliation because he didn't like the way the tandarans treated their prisoners. But when it comes to how the Vissian treats an important part of their people he couldn't care less. He didn't even say anything in their favor. How can you blame Trip for being confused?

In Risa he went after the tandaran woman whose crime was that she wanted to get information about the cabal!!! I mean seriously, what's wrong with this imbecile? When he decides that he doesn't like someone he won't even help them with reasonable things!!!

It's poetic justice that the cabal (that Archer refused to inform the tandaran woman about) tried the very next episode to frame Archer et al. for the murder of three thousand people!!!

Archer is an ass!!!!
 
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I believe Archer does concede in the episode that he hasn't necessarily set a great example. I agree that, much like Janeway, he comes off as rather mercurial. At least the incident with the Tandarans came first, so it could be argued that Archer's tried to learn from his past experiences.

I am curious as to how those who feel Archer should have more directly intervened here feel about the Federation alliance with the Klingons. In fact, that's a significant story concern in one of the "A Time to..." novels set between INS and NEM.
 
How Tucker talks about the impossibility of a third gender with Phlox near the beginning.

Colonel Green might have paired down diversity, to help with re-population after WWIII?
 
How Tucker talks about the impossibility of a third gender with Phlox near the beginning.

Colonel Green might have paired down diversity, to help with re-population after WWIII?

Or maybe by 2151, they just use different terminology for how a person identifies, and "gender" is simply used to describe a person's reproductive configuration. Dax, non-binary by nature, clearly states that she's been both a man and a woman, at varying times.
 
I have only skimmed a few posts on the first couple pages, so forgive me if what I say has already been said before.

We have no idea what the lifespan of the cogenitors are. They can be anywhere from a human lifespan to a Vulcan one... or even an Ocampa. If they do indeed live very short lives, it makes the impact of losing one felt even more. Considering that they are completely essential for the Vissians' procreation, there should not have been any intereference.

Do I agree that cogenitors should not have names or an education? Absolutely not, particularly since they are so essential. I would think they would be sort of revered.

Do I think Trip should have stayed out of their business? Absolutely. As a Starfleet officer on their first deep space exploration mission, everyone on that ship is representing the human race. How they go about first contacts are what's going to influence generations of other species when they encounter other humans. Trip was right in asking questions about their society and the cogenitor... that's how we learn. But he should NOT have been actively teaching the cogenitor. Particularly in secret... this means he KNEW what he was doing was going to cause massive trouble. Had he been upfront with Archer when he returned from the sun or even with T'Pol and let them come up with a solution, my opinion of the outcome would be vastly different.

Do I think Trip is at fault for the suicide? Yes. While it's true he could not have predicted the suicide, that's precisely why he is at fault. We only have our own species as a barometer of knowing what kind of reaction would happen if the cogenitor wouldn't get asylum. Because the Vissians are an entirely new race, there are no frames of reference to predict any outcome. Which is why it wasn't up to Trip to teach Charles. You can't apply human standards and morals to an alien race. He is definitely the one at fault.

Is Archer at fault for the suicide because he didn't grant asylum? In this case, for the very same reason Trip IS at fault, Archer is NOT at fault. Archer had to basically clean up a huge diplomatic mess Trip created. Trip was only thinking of one person, while Archer had to consider consequences for his entire crew, the Vissian couple, the cogenitor, future relations between humans and Vissians, AND the fact that this single cogenitor could seriously affect the reproduction of thousands of others because they are so rare. While I wish a better solution could have happened, Archer did the only thing he could do at the time. Maybe as relations got warmer and more frequent they could address it with the Vissians to give some social reforms, or even help them come up with a medical alternative. Frankly, they were incredibly lucky the Vissians were as friendly and reasonable as they were, or they could have easily destroyed them and targeted Earth and destroy everyone just to make sure humans won't meddle with their affairs again.

To be perfectly honest, given the severity of the situation, Trip should have lost his commission. If it were many years later, he definitely would have. In this era, he should have been dropped down a rank to Lt. Cmdr., with a reprimand that will take him a long time to get his rank back. (Even though we don't see on screen evidence of this rank, I seriously doubt it didn't exist, for the simple reason of Starfleet being based on Naval ranks.)

In short, I think Archer let him off easy.
 
Is Archer at fault for the suicide because he didn't grant asylum? In this case, for the very same reason Trip IS at fault, Archer is NOT at fault. Archer had to basically clean up a huge diplomatic mess Trip created. Trip was only thinking of one person, while Archer had to consider consequences for his entire crew, the Vissian couple, the cogenitor, future relations between humans and Vissians, AND the fact that this single cogenitor could seriously affect the reproduction of thousands of others because they are so rare. While I wish a better solution could have happened, Archer did the only thing he could do at the time. Maybe as relations got warmer and more frequent they could address it with the Vissians to give some social reforms, or even help them come up with a medical alternative. Frankly, they were incredibly lucky the Vissians were as friendly and reasonable as they were, or they could have easily destroyed them and targeted Earth and destroy everyone just to make sure humans won't meddle with their affairs again.

Archer should have held a hearing when Charles requested asylum, as is customary on Earth. But chooses to respect the Vissian position that she is not a sentient being and thus does not give her a hearing. And does not give the Vissians texts on how humans look at rights of an individual, just texts from Shakespeare and other plays. Even though there was already a cultural exchange in progress.

That’s why is as much Archer’s fault as it is Trip.
 
I don't want to reply to that thread given that its last update was over a year ago now, but two things jump out at me, and I apologize if I'm reiterating things I've already said here:

1) If Trip didn't think he was doing anything wrong, why did he feel the need to lie about what he was doing? How do we think things might have played out if he'd been honest, and perhaps most importantly, would Charles still be alive if he had been? It's really hard for me to believe that under the circumstances he didn't even receive a slap on the wrist. Worf got treated more harshly for saving his wife's life.

2) As easy as it is to blame the Vissian engineer and his wife, we have every reason to believe that their views on cogenitors are the norm among their culture. It seems unfair to blame them for simply being true to their cultural upbringing. Yes, perhaps they should have been more open-minded, but it's not as though humans have historically been any better about adapting their individual mindsets when presented with evidence that contradicted their cultural beliefs. Indeed, one could just as easily argue that Trip is a 'victim' of his cultural beliefs in this scenario.
 
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