I guess, but what's the point of having a PBR scene if it's still going to be lit and shot pre-PBR? I suppose a virtual benefit is that with this 2nd pass you don't have to worry about the spots casting a shadow on areas you don't want to show up as you would in real-life.
AndyP's Trek building thread
- Thread starter batboy853
- Start date
I guess, but what's the point of having a PBR scene if it's still going to be lit and shot pre-PBR? I suppose a virtual benefit is that with this 2nd pass you don't have to worry about the spots casting a shadow on areas you don't want to show up as you would in real-life.
@batboy853: I'd try increasing the light bounces a bit, just to see if it affects the final renders, I usually set mine at 10 across the board.
It's got nothing to do with PBR, Blender's own shorts use PBR materials and still have added lights for characters on a shot by shot basis depending on camera angles (just like a movie/TV set). It's just a reality of how shooting characters is, you either have to tweak the scene on a shot by shot basis, or do another pass with higher illumination like what @batboy853 did. Again, remember that in live action entertainment this is also done, and there's nothing more PBR than life!
It's just impossible to get good character lighting *and* set lighting at once, whether it's in 3D or IRL.
There are countless examples from Trek alone, here are just two that make it incredibly obvious:
Notice the light pointing directly at Takei for his closeup here:
It's got nothing to do with PBR, Blender's own shorts use PBR materials and still have added lights for characters on a shot by shot basis depending on camera angles (just like a movie/TV set). It's just a reality of how shooting characters is, you either have to tweak the scene on a shot by shot basis, or do another pass with higher illumination like what @batboy853 did. Again, remember that in live action entertainment this is also done, and there's nothing more PBR than life!
It's just impossible to get good character lighting *and* set lighting at once, whether it's in 3D or IRL.There are countless examples from Trek alone, here are just two that make it incredibly obvious:
Notice the light pointing directly at Takei for his closeup here:
It's got nothing to do with PBR, Blender's own shorts use PBR materials and still have added lights for characters on a shot by shot basis depending on camera angles (just like a movie/TV set). It's just a reality of how shooting characters is, you either have to tweak the scene on a shot by shot basis, or do another pass with higher illumination like what @batboy853 did. Again, remember that in live action entertainment this is also done, and there's nothing more PBR than life!
I'd suggest looking at how the Mandalorian's virtual set with it's light walls can give you great character and set lighting. It's not impossible at all. And since Blender is like the ultimate version of having a virtual set then any dim scene could be improved upon with more realistic lighting to take advantage of the PBR materials, IMHO.*
Yes, I mention in my previous post of that being a benefit for a virtual set as you can control what objects the spotlight illuminate and where the shadows don't fall and you don't have to have all that light screens and blockers and you don't have to push the camera so close to not have the lighting gear show up on the camera.
*I can definitely see situations where you might want very specific dramatic lighting that is unnatural (like the classic TOS lighting where Kirk's face is lit against a darkened bridge, etc.)
But on Mando that tech was mostly used to simulate exteriors, which by definition are a lot more over-lit and thus can provide more adecaute lighting. Not to mention that having a masked protagonist means they can get away with more uneven lighting.
For interior shots and with other characters they still used standard set lights to provide adequate lighting in closeups, even when using that high tech wall thingy, just as they'd have to do on a real set, because again, it's not about being PBR or not, it's about illuminating characters.
Stand up in different places on a room in your house and take selfies, see if you're evenly lit all around the room, looking at different places; you probably aren't, because real life rooms don't work like movies/TV sets, thus these "cheats" will always be necessary unless you want your media to look bad. Realistic, maybe, but bad on the screen.
EDIT: Now I'm looking at behind the scenes stuff for Mando, and even on exterior shots when using that wall they often used set lights to illuminate closeups.
For interior shots and with other characters they still used standard set lights to provide adequate lighting in closeups, even when using that high tech wall thingy, just as they'd have to do on a real set, because again, it's not about being PBR or not, it's about illuminating characters.
Stand up in different places on a room in your house and take selfies, see if you're evenly lit all around the room, looking at different places; you probably aren't, because real life rooms don't work like movies/TV sets, thus these "cheats" will always be necessary unless you want your media to look bad. Realistic, maybe, but bad on the screen.
EDIT: Now I'm looking at behind the scenes stuff for Mando, and even on exterior shots when using that wall they often used set lights to illuminate closeups.
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I agree, I'm not saying you should light it realistic to the point where it isn't cinematic. That single light in your picture falls under the unrealistic but cinematic lighting needed for a close-up or rim lighting. But I do think Blender is capable of doing better with the lighting and scenery.
For reference, Favreau does talk about using the virtual set for interior work and the benefits of it at 3:37.
EDIT: Now I'm looking at behind the scenes stuff for Mando, and even on exterior shots when using that wall they often used set lights to illuminate closeups.
EDIT: Speaking of closeups, was Andy's last render with characters a closeup? That's where a virtual set with good lighting comes in.
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Yeah, so I sort of agree with you guys both on various points.
@blssdwlf I 100% agree that in a perfect world you could set up the scene with emissive materials and you should be able to perfectly light a scene, but also at the same time you want your subject to stand out from the background scenery. Additionally on a wide shot like the one I posted previously I probably would not add as much additional light to the characters as I did in that render, because they do some what stand out as having different lighting. However when you zoom in on one of the characters it does look better for close shots. not very often will I have a scene where you see the characters feet.
And like @Rekkert said they do add additional lighting in professional real life scenes. Basically the mando lights the stage the same way an HDRI map would light an object in a 3d application. I wish there was away to set a different HDRI map on a per object basis in blender but there really isn't., except for maybe if you use irradiance volumes in eevee you can get some thing close to that effect.
But also I would like to add that it is not like I am straight up taking the second view layer with all the added lighting and then adding it to the scene. I am adding it by the factor of what is seen in the shadow render pass. I've found that this keeps the characters looking like they have been lit by the light generated by the emissive materials, and gives a good contrast on the character lighting.
@blssdwlf I 100% agree that in a perfect world you could set up the scene with emissive materials and you should be able to perfectly light a scene, but also at the same time you want your subject to stand out from the background scenery. Additionally on a wide shot like the one I posted previously I probably would not add as much additional light to the characters as I did in that render, because they do some what stand out as having different lighting. However when you zoom in on one of the characters it does look better for close shots. not very often will I have a scene where you see the characters feet.
And like @Rekkert said they do add additional lighting in professional real life scenes. Basically the mando lights the stage the same way an HDRI map would light an object in a 3d application. I wish there was away to set a different HDRI map on a per object basis in blender but there really isn't., except for maybe if you use irradiance volumes in eevee you can get some thing close to that effect.
But also I would like to add that it is not like I am straight up taking the second view layer with all the added lighting and then adding it to the scene. I am adding it by the factor of what is seen in the shadow render pass. I've found that this keeps the characters looking like they have been lit by the light generated by the emissive materials, and gives a good contrast on the character lighting.
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@Santaman
Oh wait wrong show.
Started working on my next room, the briefing room. From what we saw on screen, we know that the Captain's ready room of the Rhode Island was a redress of the captains quarters in End Game, therefore I will repurpose parts from my quarters / mess hall set into a conference room.
I started going back and forth between two ideas. A conference room that was a full redress of the quarters set, making it similar to the Galaxy Class / Sovereign class observation lounge. Or base the general shape off of Voyager's briefing room. I choose to take more inspiration from Voyager, as this ship was first seen on Voyager. As with the other set's I have been building this briefing room is for a Nova Class refit, and will blend designs between what we have seen in Nemesis, as well as Voyager.
Note: Table is a stand-in. I might also do completely different chairs. I might also change most wall panels in the room. And I might change the main display.
<echo>
BOARDROOM IN SPACE!!!!!!!
Oh wait wrong show.
Started working on my next room, the briefing room. From what we saw on screen, we know that the Captain's ready room of the Rhode Island was a redress of the captains quarters in End Game, therefore I will repurpose parts from my quarters / mess hall set into a conference room.
I started going back and forth between two ideas. A conference room that was a full redress of the quarters set, making it similar to the Galaxy Class / Sovereign class observation lounge. Or base the general shape off of Voyager's briefing room. I choose to take more inspiration from Voyager, as this ship was first seen on Voyager. As with the other set's I have been building this briefing room is for a Nova Class refit, and will blend designs between what we have seen in Nemesis, as well as Voyager.
Note: Table is a stand-in. I might also do completely different chairs. I might also change most wall panels in the room. And I might change the main display.
<echo>
BOARDROOM IN SPACE!!!!!!!
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Updates on the Briefing room / Conference Room / Observation Lounge / Boardroom in Space
I added some sconce lights on the panels next to the door. I did not like the bevels on the display that I modeled after what is seen in Nemesis, it felt too Romulan, so I am going with a different approach. View screen, that extends from the wall, and the plan for the panels to the left and right will be the alert status displays. This adds a splash of inspiration from TNG and maybe even a little LDS. Added the duo colored carpet that is seen on federation vessels.
The table is still a place holder, but I made it more table looking. If I continue with this particular design, i'll likely put a set of keys near the captains seat, and possible even a built in console opposite the captains seat, similar to my engineering pool table design. But also at the same time, part of me wants to model the table seen in voyager.
Lighting: I dimmed the overhead lights above the doors, and above the windows slightly. And then I wanted to add a sun type effect where there is lights coming in through the windows, so I created a world lighting that uses a Nishita sky to emulate a sun, then did some tricks to it so that you only see stars in the camera.
I added some sconce lights on the panels next to the door. I did not like the bevels on the display that I modeled after what is seen in Nemesis, it felt too Romulan, so I am going with a different approach. View screen, that extends from the wall, and the plan for the panels to the left and right will be the alert status displays. This adds a splash of inspiration from TNG and maybe even a little LDS. Added the duo colored carpet that is seen on federation vessels.
The table is still a place holder, but I made it more table looking. If I continue with this particular design, i'll likely put a set of keys near the captains seat, and possible even a built in console opposite the captains seat, similar to my engineering pool table design. But also at the same time, part of me wants to model the table seen in voyager.
Lighting: I dimmed the overhead lights above the doors, and above the windows slightly. And then I wanted to add a sun type effect where there is lights coming in through the windows, so I created a world lighting that uses a Nishita sky to emulate a sun, then did some tricks to it so that you only see stars in the camera.
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Maybe it's just me, but the sconces look weird placed right in between the little 'V' shaped inset. Maybe if they'd be a bit higher?
As for the sky, why not add a sun lamp instead? That way it doesn't bother the starfield background and you can change it's angle in order to get more defined shadows if you want to get that particular effect, like here on the right of the image.
As for the sky, why not add a sun lamp instead? That way it doesn't bother the starfield background and you can change it's angle in order to get more defined shadows if you want to get that particular effect, like here on the right of the image.
@Rekkert - I tried a sun lamp first. I hated it. Lol It did not look natural, and I found that it did not light up the windows how I wanted them to, played with the light spread angle.... Just did not look right.
I'll move the sconces up friday and post a render. Alternatively I might switch those panels out for a singular extruded panel, similar to the pieces that connect that wall to the windows.
I'll move the sconces up friday and post a render. Alternatively I might switch those panels out for a singular extruded panel, similar to the pieces that connect that wall to the windows.
@Santaman Thanks! Pretty okay is pretty okay with me!
Today I did added detailing around the viewscreen, added some panels and beveled features around the viewscreen. Part of me feels like I should do more with it, but also part of me feels like there is just the right amount of detailing around it. I also made a stand by graphic for the display for when not in use.
Intentions for this: for if/when I do an animation with this set, I'll have the officer giving the briefing stand to the left side of the display to do the talking. And then I'll replace the side with the federation emblem with whatever graphic is being used.
I also added a replicator based off of the one seen in the Voyager conference room. I *think* I got the measurements right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Additionally I feel like at times on the show this replicator had a reflective material, and other times it was not, so I made it reflecting with some detailing that is not. I also modified it from what we see on the show to include the blue replicator graphics seen on replicators on Voyager. For the opposite side of the room, I have not decided what I am going to do yet. Thinking maybe one of those giant plates that they hung up on the walls for décor
Today I did added detailing around the viewscreen, added some panels and beveled features around the viewscreen. Part of me feels like I should do more with it, but also part of me feels like there is just the right amount of detailing around it. I also made a stand by graphic for the display for when not in use.
Intentions for this: for if/when I do an animation with this set, I'll have the officer giving the briefing stand to the left side of the display to do the talking. And then I'll replace the side with the federation emblem with whatever graphic is being used.
I also added a replicator based off of the one seen in the Voyager conference room. I *think* I got the measurements right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Additionally I feel like at times on the show this replicator had a reflective material, and other times it was not, so I made it reflecting with some detailing that is not. I also modified it from what we see on the show to include the blue replicator graphics seen on replicators on Voyager. For the opposite side of the room, I have not decided what I am going to do yet. Thinking maybe one of those giant plates that they hung up on the walls for décor
I made a plate for the wall opposite of the replicator, made it using a tutorial that was actually meant for planets. but obviously this is for a plate. The conference room could still use some more décor, I'm thinking maybe plants in the corners by the replicator and plate. I've never modeled plants before, so this will be different. Perhaps i'll start with some bamboo sticks. I'd like to leave the wall with the viewscreen blank, and I am not sure that I want to put anything by the windows.
I then made a planet using the same tutorial, and took it even further to modify the shader to have city lights on the night side, of which I can modify based off of population of planet, as well as an inner and outer atmosphere. Used what was in the tutorial as a jumping off point, as I added a few more bells and whistles to it. For my space scenes, I render a still of the planet, then put that still image into the world environment map so that when I put ships in the scene it impacts the environment lighting of the objects in the scene.
I then made a planet using the same tutorial, and took it even further to modify the shader to have city lights on the night side, of which I can modify based off of population of planet, as well as an inner and outer atmosphere. Used what was in the tutorial as a jumping off point, as I added a few more bells and whistles to it. For my space scenes, I render a still of the planet, then put that still image into the world environment map so that when I put ships in the scene it impacts the environment lighting of the objects in the scene.
