Why do you rank TFF highly?

[STEPhon IT]

Of course. But, declarative statements around canon miss that point. Also, continuity is a more accurate term.

Personally, TOS as presented is not 100% in continuity with TMP forward. But, the events happened just not as visually depicted.

Not this. LoL.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Yeah, for sure. And fans are free to follow or disregard whatever they wish.

The only problem might come in with that is some future show might upend a fan's continuity. I found that with the novel continuity I've followed the last 20+ years in the TNG/DS9/Voyager/Titan universe. Picard totally upended that, to the point that pretty much nothing from the novels can co-exist with Picard.

One can treat the whole Chekov knowing Khan thing as inconsistent, but if the showrunners consider it canon and include it with some future show/movie (granted, not likely in that case, but just as an example), then you are left with a choice to revise your own 'personal' continuity, or disregarding that new piece of information on the show.

But that choice, is as always, up to the individual fan. In my case, I can't help but think of the novel continuity as the 'prime' universe. I guess I've become too invested with that over the years that I can't help but think of Picard as an alternate timeline, instead of the reverse. Of course I know that's not how the showrunners view it. But that's ok. Just as it's ok for Steph to view the whole Chekov knowing Khan thing in her own way.

Glad to see @Damian you read my post carefully, but for a few who are still having difficulty understanding. Here's my post again:

Chekov was not in the episode "Space Seed", if TWOK's Khan remembers someone who wasn't there and wasn't even invented yet, it is not canon to me.

Nothing about what the studio or showrunners or whoever owns the property has made a staple point.

I guess continuity should have been mentioned but I was referring to just that scene which didn't mesh with TOS Space Seed and not the entity of the franchise, IP etc. I can enjoy them, if the movie is good, without forcing it to make it fit. As a whole whatever Paramount owns is canon.

 

[fireproof78]

Ah, line item continuity.

 

[Damian]

Ah, line item continuity.

Lucky for us we don't need a Constitutional amendment

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, for sure. And fans are free to follow or disregard whatever they wish.

The only problem might come in with that is some future show might upend a fan's continuity. I found that with the novel continuity I've followed the last 20+ years in the TNG/DS9/Voyager/Titan universe. Picard totally upended that, to the point that pretty much nothing from the novels can co-exist with Picard.

One can treat the whole Chekov knowing Khan thing as inconsistent, but if the showrunners consider it canon and include it with some future show/movie (granted, not likely in that case, but just as an example), then you are left with a choice to revise your own 'personal' continuity, or disregarding that new piece of information on the show.

But that choice, is as always, up to the individual fan. In my case, I can't help but think of the novel continuity as the 'prime' universe. I guess I've become too invested with that over the years that I can't help but think of Picard as an alternate timeline, instead of the reverse. Of course I know that's not how the showrunners view it. But that's ok. Just as it's ok for Steph to view the whole Chekov knowing Khan thing in her own way.

Yup, totally fine. It's just helpful to define terms in a discussion since clearly different fans will view it differently.

And, personally, the last word on Picard's story for me is "All Good Things." While I am thoroughly entertained by Picard and some of the TNG films they largely don't contain much in the way of anything solid that I feel must happen. Same with Kirk. TUC has the best send off and that's the end.

Mileage will vary.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Lets try this again.

As for TFF, I think a remaster and a documentary of the movie be told; something like what 20th Century Fox did for Alien 3, I believe there's more to the story and should be done before William Shatner's demise.

 

[Damian]

Lets try this again.

As for TFF, I think a remaster and a documentary of the movie be told; something like what 20th Century Fox did for Alien 3, I believe there's more to the story and should be done before William Shatner's demise.

I would love a remaster of TFF that upgrades the special effects. TFF has a number of flaws and that is one that can be easily fixed these days, and probably at a minimal cost with today's technology. The bad special effects are probably my biggest pet peeves about the film. There are other problems, like ill placed humor, that can't really be fixed, but I could live with most of those.

But the special effects, ugh. And that's the one thing Paramount can fix. It's also the one main reason I haven't bought a Blu-Ray copy of TFF. Why do I want to see poor special effects in hi-def? Plus it helps that the special edition DVD's they released about 15 years ago look pretty good--so I haven't felt a great need to upgrade. But if they ever redid the special effects that would get me to buy the Blu-Ray.

I'd be all for more background (on any of the Star Trek films in fact). But to be honest, I'm not sure how much information you'll get that we don't already have. Most of the parties involved have been pretty vocal about TFF, including things they found good and not so good, and Shatner's never shied away from talking about it. But you never know I suppose.

I'll never forget reading somewhere that George Takei even complemented Shatner as a director. He's hardly Shatner's biggest fan, but he said despite all the pressure and complications behind making the film, Shatner always kept things easy going on set and was pretty open to suggestions from the actors. He wasn't some mean ogre of a boss throwing his weight around.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I have an itch to purchase the making of TFF by William Shatner; I'm wondering how thorough the book was about the pitfalls and successes from the production?

 

[Weyoun 251]

So I've been doing a rewatch of all the films and, having seen this thread, I went into the film with as open a mind as I could.

It is actually a damn good film - by which I mean I enjoyed it at least.

I've seen quite a bit of critiscm of the special effects and yes, some leave a bit to be desired (the Jeffries Tube rocket boots is daft, not least of all because they go past some decks more than once) but things like the stop motion (I assume) effect to create the klingon disruptor canons looked quite cool to me.

Contrast to TSFS and I find some of the visuals in that film to be sorely lacking - especially in spacedock where both Ent and Ex have thick black lines around them and just look shoddy as they move.

Some bits of FF are puzzling (where did Uhura get the fans from? Does Starfleet not have a HR dept for when your captain tells you to strip for a mission? But yeah, actually a really fun film

 

[STEPhon IT]

I honestly hate that movie TSFS for many of the reasons given, oh man, that destruction of the Enterprise... where I watched the hull crumble and sound like shattered glass. Remember, the ship was made out of futuristic metals but the Enterprise destruction was visualized as crumbled glass and sounded like it.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I honestly hate that movie TSFS for many of the reasons given, oh man, that destruction of the Enterprise... where I watched the hull crumble and sound like shattered glass. Remember, the ship was made out of futuristic metals but the Enterprise destruction was visualized as crumbled glass and sounded like it.

I would've preferred it to not have any sound, since you're not supposed to be able to hear anything in space.

But that's just me.

 

[Maurice]

but things like the stop motion (I assume) effect to create the klingon disruptor canons looked quite cool to me.

They had trouble getting the motion control rig to work so that the shutter stayed open as the camera moved, so it was effectively stop motion and staccato AF.

Contrast to TSFS and I find some of the visuals in that film to be sorely lacking - especially in spacedock where both Ent and Ex have thick black lines around them and just look shoddy as they move.

There are few spaceship shots to begin with, and most of them are played against the black of space, where it's much easier to hide matte lines.

 

[Vger23]

I have an itch to purchase the making of TFF by William Shatner; I'm wondering how thorough the book was about the pitfalls and successes from the production?

The book is pretty thorough. I bought it way back when it came out and it goes into a lot of the production problems, as well as great detail on the development of the story and characters. Definitely worth a read.

 

[Weyoun 251]

They had trouble getting the motion control rig to work so that the shutter stayed open as the camera moved, so it was effectively stop motion and staccato AF.


There are few spaceship shots to begin with, and most of them are played against the black of space, where it's much easier to hide matte lines.

The shots that they get right (BoP, Grissom, whatever the scoutship was, most of the Genesis stuff) look amazing

The ones they get wrong (spacedock, Kruge's death, some of the snow scenes on Genesis) just look awful.

I'm no artist - in fact my eye for these things is pretty generous so it must just be watching so many films in short order - but it feels like these should have been relatively easy to touch up.

Possible though that budgets were focused on the way the planet "moved" as it grew.

On the disruptor rig - it had a bit of a Red Dwarf feel to me so maybe the nostalgia for that shoe made me like it even though it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.

 

[ichab]

Over the years, I’ve noticed some fans rank The Final Frontier highly on their Trek films rankings.

While I do have an affection for TFF, it is still my least favorite film of the six TOS films.

I’d love to hear from those of you who rank TFF mid to high what it is about the film that puts it over the others.

I don't think it was as bad as many say. I thought it was an entertaining but flawed film. I know Shatner got the initial idea from the televangelists that were so popular back in the 80s, but the concept is better suited for an episode that a full blown movie. It's near the bottom for me, but at least it's watchable.

I do have to disagree with you on the score. I thought it was fantastic, as Trek scores usually are. And even though it's nowhere near my favorite, I still wish Shatner had got his chance to do a director's cut of this.

 

[Scionz]

Growing up, my Star Trek movie viewing order was entirely out of whack. I grew up with TNG, so everything from the TOS movies were just "before" (and I would be an adult before I saw all of TOS) and I watched them on VHS entirely out of order. We only taped some of them, so I only could see the others are other friends houses. TFF was one of the earlier ones, which is why it has a special place.

I think the order I saw was something like TWoK, TFF, TMP, and then way later I saw TSFS and TVH. I've probably seen TSFS and TVH the least of any Trek movies. I saw TUC in theaters.

As an adult, I came to like TFF even more because I think it captured in way most Star Trek productions do, how untamed and savage the galaxy is outside of a the lillypads most shows and moves we've seen take place in. Nimbus III had a lot of different aliens, most far stranger than we normally see, and was seedy and neglected. I think it (along with Rura Penthe) capture how known space of the late 23rd century was really in transition between being entirely unexploded in the time of Archer and the NX-01, a century prior, and extremely organized with defined borders and laws and institutions by the time of late TNG/DS9/Voyager.

Yeah the God stuff was a misfire compared to the other noncaporeal life forms Star Trek has encountered. Sha-Ka-Re is pretty dumb compared to Q, the Prophets, and the Organians. But it's also the only Star Trek movie that tried to adopt the classic Trek episode "type" to the big screen. And the Sybok stuff was alright. But being kind of the last adventure in the "wide open Frontier" galaxy makes it better than it otherwise would be, I think.

Of course the TUC's outcome has the events of 2290s shape the affairs of local space for the century. The Klingons and Federation make peace. Borders become much more defined. Starfleet will grow to a truly massive size (from what may be a couple hundred ships) over the next 50 years on the back of the Excelsior class and the Miranda class. All that really happens between then and the Dominion War are periodic skirmishes with the Romulans, Cardassians and the Borg, allowing a real integrated interstellar state to form. Places like Nimbus III don't exist quite like that a century later.

In a sense, the long peace after TUC made space and the interaction of the various species that inhabit it very ordinary. Even boring, except when something truly dramatic happens. Which is why the TFF has a certain appeal: it's a last story saying that space is still weird, unexplored and wild.

 

[STEPhon IT]

It was the last story where our heroes were perceived in a positive light. For that alone, I must cherish TFF.

 

[Damian]

It was the last story where our heroes were perceived in a positive light. For that alone, I must cherish TFF.

I will say, despite my issues with how our heroes were portrayed in most of TUC, they did nail the ending. From the point where Kirk had his mea culpa on, the movie finally had it right and their send off was spot on.

 

[STEPhon IT]

How better it would've been if Kirk spent his prison time just around Klingons so he could reflect on his prejudice and learn something where Klingons lost loved ones by humans. Kirk finds a common ground where he learns something and becomes a new person than facing shape shifting conspirators and aliens where their privates were on their knees? His turn is weak and he self reflects without a moment for it to happen; just lying down with Bones and jibber jabbering fell flat for me. Kirk needed to spend more time in the prison, not real time but present itself through a passage of time to give the impression he was there for awhile then a day.

The movie needed time to breath where instead it was racing for the finish line without exploring its themes. It's a pattern I found in all of Meyer's work as a director. I'd rather the ending in V, almost like a ceremonial ending before the ending where Kirk and his crew can breath and reflect on the amazing career they had. Don't get me wrong I like the movie it's just the movie felt hollow and I wish there was more.

 

[fireproof78]

I will say, despite my issues with how our heroes were portrayed in most of TUC, they did nail the ending. From the point where Kirk had his mea culpa on, the movie finally had it right and their send off was spot on.

The ending is amazing. I love Kirk's self reflection even though I imagine it is far more internal than how he is talking to Bones, which is really in character from Kirk in TOS. I can imagine him replaying events in his mind and what he said.

Once the third act rolls its amazing.