Is Starfleet a military organization?

[The Wormhole]

In fairness, the idea that the United Earth Starfleet would simultaneously have never launched a ship faster than Warp 5 and didn't have any deep-space expeditions running in 2151, BUT ALSO had a fully-develop bureaucratic infrastructure including a United Earth Starfleet Security division investigating the disappearance of Phlox on Earth; a United Earth Starfleet Intelligence division of which the journalist in "Demons"/"Terra Prime" was a member; and operated their own prison... that always seemed very contradictory to me. Like, it's this tiny organization that's not well-developed sometimes, and then other times it's had this well-developed infrastructure for decades?

Part of the problem is that in the fourth season the new writers to came onto the show completely ignored the worldbuilding that had gone on in the first three seasons and wrote Starfleet as the same kind of organization it was in the other shows.

 

[BK613]

I never really bought into the premise that humans would sit on their collective asses for a century before going. Just not how we work as a species.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I never really bought into the premise that humans would sit on their collective asses for a century before going. Just not how we work as a species.

We were out there behind the Vulcan's backs.

 

[Sci]

I never really bought into the premise that humans would sit on their collective asses for a century before going. Just not how we work as a species.

Well, first off, it's been over half a century since we landed on the Moon, and we've barely left low Earth orbit. So I don't think that's particularly implausible.

But ENT didn't depict Humans as "sitting on their collective asses" between 2063 and 2151. Rather, ENT made it clear that the Vulcans were refusing to share warp technology, so Humans were forced to figure out how to reach higher warp speeds by themselves -- while at the same time, parts of Earth were still undergoing the post-atomic horror (2070s, as established in "Encounter at Farpoint"); the nations of Earth were still in the process of uniting and not finishing this until 2150 (TNG "Attached"); Luna, Mars, Alpha Centauri, and Vega Colony were all being established; and the Earth Cargo Authority was sending civilian freighters across local space even with low speeds.

So even if it took a while for humanity to politically unify and launch a single planetary space agency capable of long-term deep-space expeditions, ENT did make it clear that humanity was hardly sitting on its collective asses.

 

[NCC-73515]

We know from "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" that the Federation President is Starfleet's commander-in-chief and that he has the authority to declare a State of Emergency on Federation worlds and place Starfleet troops on the streets.

Starfleet's commander-in-chief was a different person than the Federation President in TUC. I also think Admiral Marcus was not the Federation President in STID, Clancy was not the Federation President in PIC, and Jaresh-Inyo was not a Starfleet officer, and therefore not its CinC. MA says that he was considered to be the CinC of all Federation forces, and that SF CinC could be a separate position below Federation CinC, or that several SF CinCs exist for different sectors that are ultimately under the single Federation CinC's command.

But I would suggest that Starfleet is the military service and the exploratory service and the major deep-space scientific research service and a deep-space diplomatic service when civilian ambassadors are unavailable. It can be E and A, B, C, and D, and which term people use in the informal vernacular is gonna depend on the context of the conversation.

Yes, that's why I think it matters whether people say "it's a military", like it's nothing else, or "it has a military function when required, but primarily has scientific, exploratory, diplomatic duties". So it is also a military, but not primarily or exclusively.

However, outside of the Vatican, neither the Catholic Church nor any other church has the right to arrest you, charge you, try you, and imprison you.*

Edited to add: * Unless you are in the territory of a sovereign state that grants that authority to a religious organization, such as the Islamic Republic of Iran or the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. However, in the United States and the Western world, no religious organization has any such right.

I thought catholic priests and other employees are subject to catholic law, even outside the Vatican.
One problem in the catholic child abuse scandal is that many perpetrators were tried internally under "canon law"*, not by the state, which wasn't even informed. The Church can also fire hospital directors for violating biblical rules if the hospital is operated by the church (at least in Germany, a western country).

*something we need for Trek! XD

Nope. I'm vegetarian.

Mushrooms!

'Military' used to only refer to land forces, i.e., armies, because the word relates to soldiering. And while sailors may be legal combatants, they are not, for the most part, soldiers.

I think that might have some relevance here as well

 

[fireproof78]

No to canon law.

 

[Sci]

Starfleet's commander-in-chief was a different person than the Federation President in TUC.

Except that TUC made it clear that Starfleet had to take orders from the Federation President. They weren't allowed to just launch their mission to rescue Kirk without the Federation President's permission.

This isn't really a problem. "Commander-in-chief" can be a generic term for someone at the top of any given command structure. The heads of the U.S.'s Unified Combatant Commands used to be entitled as commanders-in-chief of their UCC until the Pentagon decided to reserve the term "commander-in-chief" for the U.S. President for propaganda purposes. "Bill" from TUC (and Admiral Clancy from PIC) is probably commander-in-chief of Starfleet, while the Federation President is commander-in-chief of all armed forces (including, say, the Federation Naval Patrol established in VOY).

Jaresh-Inyo was not a Starfleet officer, and therefore not its CinC. MA says that he was considered to be the CinC of all Federation forces, and that SF CinC could be a separate position below Federation CinC, or that several SF CinCs exist for different sectors that are ultimately under the single Federation CinC's command.

Yeah, pretty much. Although that means that he was, indeed, the C-in-C, just as the U.S. President was c-in-c even if some of his subordinates were Cs-in-C of their UCCs. And he was explicitly referred to as such by dialogue in "Paradise Lost."

Yes, that's why I think it matters whether people say "it's a military", like it's nothing else, or "it has a military function when required, but primarily has scientific, exploratory, diplomatic duties". So it is also a military, but not primarily or exclusively.

Sure! I'm fine with that. We just have to acknowledge that it is a military even if that is not all that it is.

I thought catholic priests and other employees are subject to catholic law, even outside the Vatican.

Sure, if they want to stay in the Church. But if, say, the Archbishop of New York violates canon law, it's not like the District Attorney of New York County is gonna charge him with that and send him to Riker's Island. Nor is the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith gonna have the legal authority to come in and arrest him or sentence him to prison. The worst they can do is excommunicate him.

One problem in the catholic child abuse scandal is that many perpetrators were tried internally under "canon law"*, not by the state, which wasn't even informed. The Church can also fire hospital directors for violating biblical rules if the hospital is operated by the church (at least in Germany, a western country).

Right. And that's the legal equivalent of getting a write-up or suspended without pay by Subway. It's not actually a process of criminal law -- it's an internal membership process. You can write someone who's part of your club up, and you can suspend them with or without pay, and you can throw someone out of the club. But the club can't imprison you. Only the state can do that.

Also, the Church officials who refrained from telling state authorities about their pedophile priests were themselves committing a crime by obstructing justice. It's legally no different than if a McDonalds exec refused to tell the state about pedophile McDonalds managers and just kept shuffling them from McDs restaurant to restaurant.

 

[NCC-73515]

Alright, makes sense. Good discussion!

 

[Tuskin38]

Didn't Gene compare Starfleet to the US Coast Guard?

 

[oberth]

Didn't Gene compare Starfleet to the US Coast Guard?

so what - okay, it' just wiki, but ...

The United States Coast Guard (USCG) is the maritime security, search and rescue, and law enforcement service branch of the United States Armed Forces

emphasis mine

you were saying?

edit to add:

the exact wording is

The Coast Guard, established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times.

emphasis again mine - source

 

[XCV330]

In fairness, the idea that the United Earth Starfleet would simultaneously have never launched a ship faster than Warp 5 and didn't have any deep-space expeditions running in 2151, BUT ALSO had a fully-develop bureaucratic infrastructure including a United Earth Starfleet Security division investigating the disappearance of Phlox on Earth; a United Earth Starfleet Intelligence division of which the journalist in "Demons"/"Terra Prime" was a member; and operated their own prison... that always seemed very contradictory to me. Like, it's this tiny organization that's not well-developed sometimes, and then other times it's had this well-developed infrastructure for decades?

I can buy the idea that the UESF is not a military because they haven't yet realized that there's a need for an interstellar military capable of defending United Earth in times of war. I just squint at everything else because the idea that the UESF is non-military makes more intuitive sense given the context of ENT.

I felt like United Earth, still feeling its way, might have combined whatever stellar navy forces they had (the Kzin wars predating NX-01), with UESPA to form Starfleet. Maybe that was the not entirely gentle guiding hand of Vulcan trying to keep Earth from getting too militant.

UESPA still existed during TOS, though perhaps only as part of the bureaucracy, an Operating Authority. Various Starfleet ships of that era may have operated under the authority of similar organizations, which might be why there was a Starfleet ship with an entirely Vulcan crew. It would explain the lack of Tellarites and Andorians seen on Starfleet ships as well, they just tended to be on their own.

They already had ships like Franklin, Intrepid, Sarajevo, and the Warp Deltas, and going a little further back, the XCV Enterprise and the Conestoga, not to mention the ECS ships. There was a lot going on during that period, and I find it interesting. If they'd had border skirmishes with Kzin, and the occasional Nausicaan raid on cargo vessels, it explains why those early ships are all so well armed while doing their best not to appear military. Earth was the new kid in town and it was not a good time to go about swaggering.

 

[Tuskin38]

emphasis mine

you were saying?

I didn't say anything. Why are you jumping on me?

I know the US Coast Guard is part of the US military, I never said otherwise. I was just asking if he ever compared the two, because I vaguely remember reading that somewhere.

Don't assume things.

 

[oberth]

I didn't say anything. Why are you jumping on me?

I know the US Coast Guard is part of the US military, I never said otherwise. I was just asking if he ever compared the two, because I vaguely remember reading that somewhere.

Don't assume things.

you post came without that explanation and i understood (aka assumed*) it as the coastguard to be somewhere in the no man's land between a military and a civilian organisation (which clearly isn't the case).

if you feel jumped that certainly wasn't my intention but then as a german i'm not into that american theory of be polite at all times and send in the marines later

---

* everybody does that

 

[Captain Nebula]

Starfleet is only a military organization when it has to be. The Borg. The Dominion War.

 

[fireproof78]

The Romulans.

The Klingons.

The Cardassians.

The Tzinkethi.

Or sent as reassurance against potential aggression.

Yes, it is a military.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

you post came without that explanation and i understood (aka assumed*) it as the coastguard to be somewhere in the no man's land between a military and a civilian organisation (which clearly isn't the case).

Not quite.

The Coast Guard is not in any way, shape or form a civilian organization (the only civilian uniformed services are the NOAA, the PHSCC and maybe if you squint the Civil Air Patrol, due to being unarmed and are not typically covered under the UCMJ at service level), it has dual authority under Titles 10 & 14 as a military forces, and under other provisions of Titles 14 and 19 as a law enforcement agency.

They are also assigned various non-military/non-law-enforcement duties such as environmental protections, marine safety, aids to navigation and search-and-rescue, but these do not require a legal mandate.

 

[oberth]

Not quite.

The Coast Guard is not in any way, shape or form a civilian organization (the only civilian uniformed services are the NOAA, the PHSCC and maybe if you squint the Civil Air Patrol, due to being unarmed and are not typically covered under the UCMJ at service level), it has dual authority under Titles 10 & 14 as a military forces, and under other provisions of Titles 14 and 19 as a law enforcement agency.

They are also assigned various non-military/non-law-enforcement duties such as environmental protections, marine safety, aids to navigation and search-and-rescue, but these do not require a legal mandate.

you must have missed this one

so what - okay, it' just wiki, but ...

emphasis mine

you were saying?

edit to add:

the exact wording is

emphasis again mine - source

the quotes you don't see are kinda important

 

[The Wormhole]

Jaresh-Inyo was not a Starfleet officer, and therefore not its CinC.

Yeah, no. Actual dialogue from Paradise Lost:

JARESH-INYO: Your story has a certain logic to it, gentlemen, but what it lacks is proof.
SISKO: You want proof? Order Admiral Leyton to withdraw his troops from the streets. See what he does.
JARESH-INYO: You think he would refuse a direct order from his Commander-in-Chief?
SISKO: If he orders his troops to stand down, then I'm wrong and I'll offer my resignation. But I don't think that's going to happen. With those troops in place, Admiral Leyton controls Earth. And he's not going to give up that control until he's convinced that he has ended the Dominion threat.

Yes, Starfleet also uses the term Commander-in-Chief for its highest ranking officer, which seems really sloppy. They really use Chief of Staff or Chief of Starfleet Operations. Actually, Chief of Starfleet Operations is an actual position, but it's apparently much lower in the rung. IIRC, that was Kirk's position in TMP when he was only a Rear Admiral.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, Starfleet also uses the term Commander-in-Chief for its highest ranking officer, which seems really sloppy. They really use Chief of Staff or Chief of Starfleet Operations. Actually, Chief of Starfleet Operations is an actual position, but it's apparently much lower in the rung. IIRC, that was Kirk's position in TMP when he was only a Rear Admiral.

The biggest struggle with Starfleet over the years is that with so many writers terms get conflated really easily, and then it gets mixed up.

 

[oberth]

Yeah, no. Actual dialogue from Paradise Lost:

Yes, Starfleet also uses the term Commander-in-Chief for its highest ranking officer, which seems really sloppy. They really use Chief of Staff or Chief of Starfleet Operations. Actually, Chief of Starfleet Operations is an actual position, but it's apparently much lower in the rung. IIRC, that was Kirk's position in TMP when he was only a Rear Admiral.

yep - methinks for two and a half years or somesuch