Where does the Bonaventure fit within continuity?

[FederationHistorian]

But what about... ?

Replaced the Bonaventure lost in the Delta Triangle. Well, replaced might be the wrong word.

I wonder if this Bonaventure was fitted with modern warp drive (as seen in TOS) and after a refit somehow got sent back in time to the mid-21 century, explaining how the TAS Bonaventure came to be.

as far as the Kzinti go.. yeah it is a tricky thing to fit into the timeline. the dialog in the TAS episode has Sulu saying the last war with them was 200 years prior, which would put it in roughly 2069. the idea of multiple wars clashing with the statement that earth didn't know what threats existed in space (VOY "friendship one", talking about the probe's launch in 2067) my own personal interpretation would have the Kzinti being something of threats to Earth's early colonization efforts using warp 1 drives (most likely Conestoga type vessels) and Sulu's statement was inexact.. that he was rounding up by a few decades. so you'd get 4 conflicts between the Kzinti and earth in the 2070's and maybe 2080's, with them being raiders who attacked earth's colonies and harrassed Earth's nascent interstellar trading vessels. the 4 'wars' being waves of Kzinti invasions of certain larger colonies, which came with increased raids. Earth being targeted because their colonies and ships were not well defended, and the Kzinti themselves weren't much more advanced than earth and not really able to take on the ships of the vulcans, andorians, or tellarites. (Kzinti ships in my mind would have been maybe warp 3-4 and having armaments akin to the NX class. and they probably got their tech from someone else, rather than having invented it. they'd have relied on slaves to build and repair stuff, much like Niven's version)
and that the war ended when the raids started threatening Vulcan interests, which led to the Kzinti being easily defeated by the Vulcan high Command, who instituted the policy of restricting the Kzinti to their own homeworld. A policy which Starfleet would eventually pick up after the formation of the UFP.

Perhaps, rather than looking at the Earth-Kzinti War in the traditional sense, maybe look at the Kzinti more as bands of pirates/warlords? We know that IRL, both the American and the British navies had several skirmishes with pirates and warlords all the time, pre-Industrial Revolution. In the British case, it was to end the slave trade on open waters, by unilaterally banning the practice. Heck, the Americans had to deal with the warlords off the coast of Africa, in order to stop them from raiding their merchant vessels, by sending in the US Marines (i.e. "shores of Tripoli"?). Perhaps, early Starfleet, in order for Earth to make its stance known that it would not be picked on, had to deal with the Kzinti in the same manner?

The Kzinti operating as pirates and warlords that interfered in Earth’s early colonization efforts, which resulted in the Vulcans getting involved to end the conflict is an interesting direction, and make a lot of sense. Not sure how Earth would be able to enforce the Treaty of Sirius when they had no influence whatsoever at the time. But the Vulcans would be able to.

 

[mithril]

it definitely makes for an interesting narrative. it also ties in well with how isolated earth's colonies would have been at the time. i mean, at best earth could only do warp 2 (the J-class had warp-2 engines and dates to 2102, and was probably not the first use of it), but we know that they set up Vega colony around then, which beta canon establishes at Alpha Lyrae, about 25ly from earth. which at warp 2, would involved a one trip of about 37.5 months (or 3.15 years..) or more likely a little longer, since the ships probably couldn't sustain such speeds for the whole trip non-stop. so even if earth could learn via subspace comms what is going on in its colonies, any military response would either have to be undertaken by local forces of the colonies, or have a multi-year delay as forces come from earth.

of course, having a war with the kzinto would help explain why earth starfleet is so very military, and the MACOs exist at all.. Earth learned that even within vulcan protected space, there are still military threats to earth, and starfleet wound up as the first line of defense against those.

 

[BillJ]

The Bonaventure fits fine in TOS/TAS continuity.

 

[Phoenix219]

The Bonaventure fits fine in TOS/TAS continuity.

Yup, TOS and TAS is just a completely different animal.

I rationalize it with timeline rewrites post First Contact, where ENT, DSC, SNW are on a different path from the original 60s/70s stuff.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Yup, TOS and TAS is just a completely different animal.

I rationalize it with timeline rewrites post First Contact, where ENT, DSC, SNW are on a different path from the original 60s/70s stuff.

And the later part of Voyager. Considering the stuff about the Federation knowing so much about the Borg (even what a Borg cube looks like) and Seven's parents actively searching for them (with success!).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And the later part of Voyager. Considering the stuff about the Federation knowing so much about the Borg (even what a Borg cube looks like) and Seven's parents actively searching for them (with success!).

It’s a predestination paradox. FC was always part of the timeline.

(You can’t prove it wasn’t, anyway.)

 

[Dukhat]

Aside from DSC and SNW inevitably looking nothing like TOS.

 

[dupersuper]

Aside from DSC and SNW inevitably looking nothing like TOS.

But the Defiant from enterprise still looks like the Defiant, and that came out after First contact.

 

[Dukhat]

But the Defiant from enterprise still looks like the Defiant, and that came out after First contact.

And the Defiant looks different in the wireframe model in DSC than it does in ENT. Clearly that ship likes being rebuilt several times into different shapes.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It’s a predestination paradox. FC was always part of the timeline.

(You can’t prove it wasn’t, anyway.)

It's canonically a pogo paradox, as discribed in VOY: "Relativity", where interference to prevent an occurrence actually triggers the occurance.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I think what we see since First Contact isn't what happened in the timeline of TNG. I guess in the past of the show, the Borg weren't around when Cochraine made his Warp 1 flight with the Phoenix.

From an older post i made:

"It's my belief that the Borg changed themselves via time travel some time after "Descent", maybe shortly before First Contact, because Hugh's return crippled or even destroyed the original collective we've seen in TNG.

Or maybe the Borg's arrival in 2063 and their later transmission send to the Delta Quadrant during the 22nd century created the changed Borg we've seen since First Contact. And that might be the pogo paradox, Braxton talked about in "Relativity".

As i hinted at in my post, it's very possible imo that the pogo paradox, mentioned in "Relativity", doesn't concern the Borg collective seen in TNG at all. Just Version 2.0 seen since this movie.

 

[Phoenix219]

I don't believe FC was always part of the timeline, and I would suggest that there is way more evidence that it was not, than that it was. You can't prove that it was, either.

I'm not sure I even believe in pre-destination paraodxes in general, and that there wasn't some type of original timeline before the timeloops (that look like predestination) begin that kicked off the whole thing, that we just never got to see.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I don't believe FC was always part of the timeline, and I would suggest that there is way more evidence that it was not, than that it was. You can't prove that it was, either.

I'm not sure I even believe in pre-destination paraodxes in general, and that there wasn't some type of original timeline before the timeloops (that look like predestination) begin that kicked off the whole thing, that we just never got to see.

That's exactly my point. If things like the pogo paradox exist, why does everyone assume that there wasn't a previous state of the timeline without it?

Could be that it only was after FC...

 

[Timo]

The easy way out? The ship in TAS was the first Bonaventure fitted with a warp drive.

It need be no more complicated than that. The hero ship of TOS appears to have been the second Enterprise fitted with a warp drive, unless the ringship somehow counts. A venerable name might only get rewarded with a warp application fairly late in the game, possibly decades after the founding of a Starfleet that loves using venerable names - after all, there's no shortfall of such, whereas there is always a shortfall of starships.

SInce it's the "old" Bonaventure, Starfleet might be onto its second warpship of that name by the time of the adventure, with a long way to go till a third.

And since the "descendants" of the crew might be alive, we probably need to go back quite a few decades. But the ship wearing the same sort of livery as the TOS/TAS hero ship need not indicate anachronism. Rather, the livery of the hero ship might be ancient, her "22nd century style" cylinder engines soldiering on long after the rest of the fleet has gone square. For all we know, NCC-1701 was put together from very old spares (for NCC-1000 -range starships) in 2240...

(As for the registry, might be Starfleet doesn't paint a proper one on until a ship passes tests and shakedowns, and the "third voyage" didn't suffice yet. Or then the thing that looks like a 2 or a Z between the two round recharger vents and the two vertical intercooler slits is a frammistat, and the actual numbers after the letters NCC have faded away...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Phoenix219]

So in a way you are saying the TMP refit just brought the "ancient" style TOS E more in line with what the rest of the fleet already looked like during the decades surrounding TOS?

 

[Timo]

Or skipped a generation or two to get ahead in the game. This seems to go double for DSC, where NCC-1701 is unique and superlative yet never credited with modernity, while Pike remarks on all the remarkable stuff about NCC-1031 being internal (that is, he only remarks on it after getting inside the hero ship). So square nacelles is expected, and anything older is simply legacy hardware.

Kirk would certainly be ten times the hero if taking a WWI cruiser into WWII, minor refits or none. (Indeed, HMS Enterprise was one of those! Plus a good example of a ship from a decades-old design only getting operationally launched well after said design had been superseded by more modern ones - my NCC-1701 vs. NCC-1017 argument in a nutshell.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tim Thomason]

Kirk would certainly be ten times the hero if taking a WWI cruiser into WWII, minor refits or none. (Indeed, HMS Enterprise was one of those! Plus a good example of a ship from a decades-old design only getting operationally launched well after said design had been superseded by more modern ones - my NCC-1701 vs. NCC-1017 argument in a nutshell.)

She's a classic. There's only twelve still like her in the fleet.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That's exactly my point. If things like the pogo paradox exist, why does everyone assume that there wasn't a previous state of the timeline without it?

Interference to attempt to prevent an event from happening, logically requires that said event must have happened - otherwise there'd be nothing to prevent. Therefore, there cannot be a previous version of the timeline where it didn't happen.

Both paradoxes are, in essence, two sides of the same coin. They exist together. In a way, they are the same.