Spoilers Black Widow grade and discussion thread

[Noname Given]

Saw it, liked it. I will say with all the running jokes through all the marvel movies between Black widow and Hawkeye of their time in Budapest and how they both remember it differently; I thought they were going to go with Natasha somehow getting her memories of her escape altered to explain how she didn't manage to kill Taskmaster before the escape.

Also with respect to Red Guardian; I really hope this is the last time we see another super soldier serum mention because that's also becoming a really tired trope in the MCU. Also for me the whole red Guardian versus Captain America bit was off just because everyone knew that effectively the Red Guardian was retired before the MCU Captain America was defrosted; UNLESS they do a future story with the time traveled Steve Rogers donning the suit and shield for some sort of emergency and he runs into the Red Guardian in his prime... <--- But yeah I doubt we'll ever see that come to pass.

Still it had some very fun and entertaining moments and I do like what they did with the Black Widow backstory since they completely had to ditch the whole World War II orphan bit as the MCU takes place 40 years past that (More or less besides Captain America of course).

It was a nice combo of comic book meets James Bond, and I do like the internal nod as the Bond film Natasha was watching in the trailer was "Moonraker", which was one of the more comic bookish style James Bond films.

And going forward if someone ever wants to do an MCU rewatch in chronological order, this film fits quite nicely to watch after "Captain America's Civil War". They managed to splice this in quite nicely to that continuity.

Overall I give it an A.

 

[Jedi Marso]

General:
Saw this in the theater today, the first time in a while (although not forever) since we went to the movies in a theater. Pretty good showing of people as well, especially for a Friday morning 1130 showing. Hopefully it bodes well for cinemas making a comeback. Overall a solid offering in the MCU, with a few hiccups and a few pleasant surprises.

The Good:
ScarJo was on-point as Romanov as always, and after a first half-hour or so of incoherence the movie found its footing and got good. I have to say that up until a few weeks ago I'd never heard of Florence Pugh, and then I watched Midsommar at home and was pleasantly surprised to see her in this movie as well, and in my book she pretty much stole every scene she was in. And when stacked up against the star, Rachel Weisz, and David Harbour from Stranger Things, I have to say her scene-stealing seemed pretty effortless. It's obvious that this movie, among other things, is setting up Pugh for a bigger, ongoing role in the MCU, perhaps even taking over as the Black Widow herself. Some good material about 'family' and what that all means, and some kick-ass actions scenes as we'd expect from an Avengers movie. The typical Avengers humor was present as well, although not as much as we're used to in these movies. Above all, it was a couple hours of good, entertaining, popcorn munching fun.

The Bad:
The opening credits sequence was horrible. It also featured the worst, slowest, whiniest, angsty, most emo cover of a Nirvana song you've ever heard. I mean, imagine making the original Nirvana track seem like ska-band happiness by comparison. The first twenty minutes of this movie left me wondering if it wasn't going to be a walk-out sort of turkey. Fortunately, it got better. There was a general incoherence to the first half hour that was jarring, but things settled down nicely after that. The action scenes suffered from a common problem directors have these days: the camera was too close-up and the scenes consisted of too many jump cuts in the sequence, resulting in messy, 'what just happened' sort of fight scenes. If you are going to center a movie around the action scenes, they need to be watchable and coherent. One last minor point, and I'm not sure how much of it was a matter of talent or how much by design: Florence Pugh's Yelena was far more entertaining, funny, interesting and watchable throughout this film than ScarJo's Natasha, and that's not right when it's supposed to be Natasha's movie.

The Ugly:
Hate to have to go here, but I'm going to. Another Disney Princess vehicle in which not a single male character was presented with any real competence or redeeming qualities, with the possible exception of Mason, the token effeminate/minority character who got about three minutes of screen time. David Harbour's Alexei was the typical 'comic relief' father figure who is white, stupid, harmless, mushroomed, and continuously out-performed by his uber-talented wife and daughters. Whatever.

Summary:
Few MCU movies are without their faults, and the same is true of this one. That said, this is solid summer blockbuster fare, and the first movie in ages that made me want to go back to the cinema. It was fun, enjoyable, and I'd recommend it to anyone who is a fan of the MCU. A solid entry in the milieu and a nice retro-sendoff for ScarJo, who's time here is apparently done. I'm looking very forward to seeing Florence Pugh pick up that torch going forward, and I dare say that we may find her even more enjoyable in future offerings than we have ScarJo herself.

A- or a solid 8/10.

 

[thribs]

Pugh’s accent was a bit much. Did Jimmy Pardo’s father in law teach her?

 

[Xerxes82]

I liked it, but I didn't love it. I'll give it a solid B. A good addition to the MCU, but not a favorite.

The action scenes were solid, but over the top. More or less what I expected. It kind of felt like a greatest hits of previous films, which is weirdly appropriate given Taskmaster's presence. The best sequence was the car chase in the middle of the film, it felt very Bourne/Bond, as opposed to the climax. More than anything, I felt like this film echoed Bourne, which again fits the character and the tone.

The real highlight was the 'family' setup. I thought all four actors did a fine job, but ScarJo and Florence Pugh really did the heavy lifting. The bickering, the back and forth sass and in-fighting, they really felt like sisters. Particularly Pugh's arc really delivered. I'm looking forward to seeing more of her in the MCU.

I was surprised by the after credits scene. Not the cameo, but the target for Yelena. Apparently we're going full Disney+ now. Which is cool, I just didn't see it coming. I actually think the cameo worked better because we'd seen them first in what was meant to be the second appearance. I felt that did a better job of introduction, while this was more cryptic.

Also, the running gag with the superhero landing absolutely had me chuckling. Pugh's delivery was just brilliant, and it's something that totally deserved to be mocked.

 

[thribs]

Yeah. I felt I was watching a Bourne movie as well. Maybe it’s just the European setting

 

[Lakenheath 72]

For most of the film, until the end, I had to struggle with matching the 2016 cast to the 1995 cast. It was not as defined as it should be. There were moments in the film where the effects were made for the 3D version. I haven't seen such blatant effects in years.

To give one example, Dreykov's glasses being shot to the center forward of the screen. This is reminiscent to me of the jawbone of the shark from Jaws 3 3D after it had been blown apart.

There was several scenes in the film, at Melina's place where I expected them, in mid conversation, to be interrupted by Red Room troops. It was a pleasant change to see these scenes unfold, with us learning more about the characters, with no interruption.

There was a certain attitude in the making of this film which is exemplified by the approach the creative team took in not addressing how the Black Widow dealt with General Ross' men.

How did she get away? We don't know, you don't know, and "Black Widow" director Cate Shortland doesn't know. Here's what she told us when we asked her about this confusing scene.

"That was intentional, because we wanted to leave the question of how she would get away, rather than allow the audience to get exhausted by another fight," director Cate Shortland told TheWrap.

"We wanted to leave you guys on a high with the question of how did she use her ingenuity? Because she did. And it was probably, I would say, she bargained her way out of that situation. But I don't know."

Is There a Scene Missing at the End of 'Black Widow'? (msn.com)

I rated the film B+.

 

[FPAlpha]

To be fair it's been in the can since October 2019.........#thanksCOVID

That's not what i meant. The movie should have been done somewhere in the middle of the first 22 movie arc as the popularity of the character rose from movie to movie. Marvel had the opportunity to lead Hollywood by building up their female superstars and giving them their own movies to helm but they dropped the ball and waited too long.

 

[thribs]

It was weird that she got a movie so late, but I suppose she was too busy starring in those Captain America movies. Movies where she was paid way more than Chris Evans BTW.

 

[KennyB]

Movies where she was paid way more than Chris Evans BTW.

Wut? Gotta source for that?

 

[thribs]

It was on IGN a few years ago. Surprised me as well.
I can’t seem to find that article online but for Age of Ultron, ScarJo got 20 million while Chris Evans only got 6.9 million.

 

[YLu]

It was weird that she got a movie so late, but I suppose she was too busy starring in those Captain America movies. Movies where she was paid way more than Chris Evans BTW.

It was on IGN a few years ago. Surprised me as well.
I can’t seem to find that article online but for Age of Ultron, ScarJo got 20 million while Chris Evans only got 6.9 million.

Age of Ultron wasn't a Captain America movie.

 

[thribs]

Age of Ultron wasn't a Captain America movie.

I know but I couldn’t find the salaries for those movies in the short time I was looking

 

[Tuskin38]

So I guess Yelena will be in the Hawkeye show?

 

[JD]

Yep, there had already been talk about that a while ago, so this was just confirmation.

That's not what i meant. The movie should have been done somewhere in the middle of the first 22 movie arc as the popularity of the character rose from movie to movie. Marvel had the opportunity to lead Hollywood by building up their female superstars and giving them their own movies to helm but they dropped the ball and waited too long.

It was weird that she got a movie so late, but I suppose she was too busy starring in those Captain America movies. Movies where she was paid way more than Chris Evans BTW.

A lot of the blame for that lies at the feet of Ike Perlmutter, who was in charge of Disney Studios until 2015 and absolutely refused to let them do anything that didn't have a white male in the lead. Now, I'm not sure why Black Widow wasn't one of the first movies we got once his ass got the boot, it really should have been.

 

[Noname Given]

Yep, there had already been talk about that a while ago, so this was just confirmation.



A lot of the blame for that lies at the feet of Ike Perlmutter, who was in charge of Disney Studios until 2015 and absolutely refused to let them do anything that didn't have a white male in the lead. Now, I'm not sure why Black Widow wasn't one of the first movies we got once his ass got the boot, it really should have been.

It pretty much was after the Captain Marvel film. Remember this one's been in the can since 2019. We would have had it released a year earlier if not for covid-19.

 

[JD]

Good point. And I realized that Marvel plans their stuff out years in advance, so they probably started plans for it not long after Perlmutter left.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Saw it this afternoon and I really loved it. The film was well worth the wait, finally giving Natasha her due while also telling a poignant tale about family. I loved the whole family dynamic, but I especially enjoyed all of the verbal sparing between Nat and Yelena. You could really feel their sisterly bond but also the deep hurt Yelena felt after the events of the prologue, her extended time in the Red Room, and Nat's failure to help free her. Even though this was Nat's film, in a lot of ways, it was even more so Yelena's, partially because Florence Pugh was so stellar in the role. After seeing the post-credits scene, I can't wait to see the future of the name of Black Widow in Yelena's hands.

Melina and Alexei were great fun, largely because you could tell Rachel Weisz and David Harbour were having so much fun in their roles. If I only had one complaint about them, I wish we had gotten more of them. Hopefully we haven't seen the last of them.

I know some people will be disappointed about how Taskmaster was portrayed, but as someone who has no loyalty to the character (I hadn't even heard of him until I started playing Marvel's Contest of Champions a few years ago), I really enjoyed how she was depicted here, even if I saw the big reveal a mile away. That reveal wasn't helped by the fact we spent an extra year waiting for this film and I'm certain I wasn't the only person who wondered who Taskmaster actually was (and I didn't like the one theory I kept seeing: Melina). Antonia's loss of agency tied in well with the rest of the Black Widows but it is a shame that Olga Kurylenko didn't get much to work with and only had one line at the very end.

As for the post-credits scene, I figured it had to be Valentina when it became clear she wasn't going to show up in the main body of the film. It's a shame Vanity Fair spoiled her inclusion in the film, but I guess it's not really their fault since COVID forced this film's delay so much. Oh, well, at least it was still a fun scene and now we know exactly what kind of role Yelena will be playing in the upcoming Hawkeye series (although it does beg the question of how Valentina knows that Barton was there when Nat died). How much you wanna bet Barton will just say "Yeah, you're right, I should die. Go ahead"?

 

[kirk55555]

I watched it, and it was ok. I liked the main cast, but the villain was bland and uninteresting, and Taskmaster was really lame compared to the comic version (and I called taskmaster's identity long before it was officially revealed). Nothing in the movie was bad, but there was nothing that I found particularly impressive, either. It felt like a mostly throwaway film, written and made competently but not much more then that. I'm mildly interested to see if we're getting lead into some Dark Avengers thing in the future based off the end scene with Yelena, but thats the only thing I feel will have any kind of lasting impact on the MCU.

This is not a film that I'll be going back to very often, but its far from the worst MCU film (that's still a tie between Ant-Man & The Wasp and the MCU Spider-Man films for me), and its not a bad film at all, its just an ok film, which is at the lower end for MCU movies but not bad taken on its own.

I voted C on the poll.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

So the last film I saw in a cinema pre-pandemic was a DC female-led film and the first one I saw post-pandemic was a Marvel female-led one.

Actually, come to think of it, the same is true for me. I'm surprised I didn't notice that before. Both were great films!

Was anyone else expecting a payoff to Alexei's stories of fighting Captain America? It just seemed a recurring joke and was expecting it go somewhere.

I think it worked out better this way, although I would've liked to have heard Nat's response to Alexei asking what Steve thought of him. I'm guessing Steve never heard of him.

I'm looking forward to seeing this movie.

But I find this whole "Premier Access" model on Disney Plus a little baffling. If for whatever reason I'm not able to see the movie in a theater on a humongous screen for $11, I'm not going to pay $30 to stream a movie that is just going to become a normal part of the Disney Plus catalog later this year. Plus, even if I spend that extra $30, the title is only available if my account is active... and I regularly deactivate my account for months at a time between seasons of shows I'm watching! So if I'm going to spend $30 on the movie, then I would rather wait a few months and spend that amount to own a physical disc that isn't tied down to a streaming account. And then there are the extra features on blu-ray. I'm not sure if those are included on Disney Plus.

Kor

I agree completely on this point. With past "Premier Access" films, I've waited for the grace period to end (okay, only with Raya and the Last Dragon since I still haven't gotten to Mulan). I wasn't about to do that for Black Widow. That said, if I hadn't felt safe going to the theater where I am, I would've paid the $30 but I wouldn't like it.

That said, I fully understand why people are doing it and why they're not feeling safe to go out. It really depends on what region in the country you are and who you're risking. I was fortunate that there was only about 30 people at my showing (it was at noon, so that helped a lot) and most people were wearing masks (including myself even though I'm fully vaccinated) despite the fact AMC is not forcing people to do so if people are vaccinated (but they're not checking).

And going forward if someone ever wants to do an MCU rewatch in chronological order, this film fits quite nicely to watch after "Captain America's Civil War". They managed to splice this in quite nicely to that continuity.

Yeah, I liked that touch. Even though Ross' inclusion wasn't necessary, I did like that moment at the beginning of the film (and of course she was nowhere near where they thought she was).

That said, the final scene was a little weird and unnecessary. It wasn't clear to me why Nat stayed behind and waited for Ross, instead of leaving with all of the Black Widows and Red Guardian. I guess the point is she was waiting to get captured by them so she could go free Steve and Sam? But that wasn't even necessary (but I guess she didn't know that?). I don't know, seemed unnecessary either way.

I was surprised by the after credits scene. Not the cameo, but the target for Yelena. Apparently we're going full Disney+ now. Which is cool, I just didn't see it coming. I actually think the cameo worked better because we'd seen them first in what was meant to be the second appearance. I felt that did a better job of introduction, while this was more cryptic.

Kevin Feige did tell us when he first announced the initial slate of Disney+ shows that they would be directly integrated with the films, so there would be a lot of going from the shows to the films and back again. This is the future of the MCU (at least for the foreseeable future).

But I think I agree with you regarding the order of the cameos. Of course, it helped that after her first appearance in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, we were immediately hit with articles that filled in the details about who the character was (for those of us who weren't familiar with her).

Also, the running gag with the superhero landing absolutely had me chuckling. Pugh's delivery was just brilliant, and it's something that totally deserved to be mocked.

Yup, I really loved that, too, right down to how disgusted she felt after doing it.

That's not what i meant. The movie should have been done somewhere in the middle of the first 22 movie arc as the popularity of the character rose from movie to movie. Marvel had the opportunity to lead Hollywood by building up their female superstars and giving them their own movies to helm but they dropped the ball and waited too long.

In this case, we can blame Ike Perlmutter for that. Feige wanted to do a Black Widow film sooner but Perlmutter was adamantly against it. Once Perlmutter was out of direct creative control, that's when the films became riskier and more creative and more progressive.

But I agree that this film may have missed the mark a little simple because it was so late in arriving.

A lot of the blame for that lies at the feet of Ike Perlmutter, who was in charge of Disney Studios until 2015 and absolutely refused to let them do anything that didn't have a white male in the lead. Now, I'm not sure why Black Widow wasn't one of the first movies we got once his ass got the boot, it really should have been.

Probably due to the fact that when it happened, Feige already had a ton of balls in the air and he couldn't immediately slot in a Black Widow film. But that's just an optimistic guess on my part.

 

[thribs]

Nat keeps going on about her mother but never mentions her father. We know she has no idea who he is from Endgame. Did she just assume he was evil?