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The Excelsior - uncovering the design

I was looking through some TrekCore screencaps to try and identify it. The second model use was near the starbase in "Behind The Lines."

https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/6x04/behindthelines_000.jpg
https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/6x04/behindthelines_001.jpg

The ship is in the far background with no other vessels next to it, so there’s no way to determine scale. But it looks to have the same greebles as the Centaur. By the time of ‘Sacrifice of Angels’ they had switched from physical models to CGI.
 
Yep. I just don't see where it might have been visible in SOA, assuming it was part of the fleet. I've been able to identify pretty much all the other designs, even though some of them (like the few Sabers) are harder to spot unless you know where to look.
 
Here's my big issue. See this big undercut circling the entire ventral saucer?

51289918062_db427f5596_o.jpg


At that scale, that's pretty much most of a deck high. The MSD, incidentally, completely ignores this (and gets the central portion's curvature wrong):

51290842283_049834402d_o.jpg


That deck cannot, actually, run contiguously through from core to rim. This is a problem that goes all the way back. See the Enterprise model versus Jefferies' cutaway:

51291379454_52647b20a8_o.jpg

51289918037_afe42413bf_o.jpg


Even as recently as Drexler's cutaway, it's still missed/ignored in official sources:

51290662566_705baaa5a7_o.jpg


But all this means that -- at full Excelsior scale, that outer portion of the saucer lower rim has to be an extension of whatever's on the deck above, including access to it. Whatever is out there is not tied into whatever's on that deck closer to the core, on the other side of the undercut.

But if the Buckner is scaled to the Reliant's bridge, not only is the shuttlebay less than head height, everything outboard of the ventral saucer undercut -- that we see clearly onscreen, that being the preferred angle to show ships from...

51290686096_264012b43d_o.jpg


...is not going to be easy to access. That whole saucer rim deck is barely standard height at that scale. With the undercut interrupting that, about the only way to the rimward portion will be through meter-high Jefferies tubes, or down gangways from the deck above. So anything out there will likely be only stuff that needs to be accessed for maintenance, rather than quarters, lounges, or regular duty stations. That further limits the already limited space aboard. It's a grand total of five decks. One is the bridge. One is the narrow half-oval that runs aft to the impulse engines, one is the cramped deck below the level of the rim where the lower sensor array is... and two are between those, limited to the diameter of the central portion of the lower saucer before the undercut. That's markedly less space than aboard the Defiant at its (bad) official size, even with one more deck. Once ships get down that small, there's less and less reason to make them saucer-like -- as the Defiant shows. The only "saucerish" portions of that ship house the forward torpedo launchers. Most of the interior layout is rectilinear.

Just like how the interior and exterior of the Millennium Falcon were shown onscreen, but the one cannot in actuality fit within the other, just because something's shown onscreen doesn't mean it can work as depicted. I like Adam and the ships he designed. I have them in my personal class lists. But the size of the Buckner/Centaur is something I will fight him on. He may have created it, but he's wrong about how big it is. ;) Even at Excelsior size, it's still a smallish ship that makes a good successor to the Akyazi for border interdiction. I, further, use the Enterprise-B saucer for my build, with those extra saucer pods solidly purposed as shuttlebays (and have toyed with redoing the one in front of the bridge as a deflector a la the Voyager's, albeit an earlier model).
 
I was noticing that Memory Alpha mentions the third use as being in "Sacrifice of Angels" - presumably as part of Sisko's fleet. I'm interested to see where it's actually visible, as I don't recall seeing the Centaur model but that doesn't mean it's not there. With so much going on, it wouldn't be hard to miss. :D
It is visible. It is almost hard to tell from the Akira class, except it lacks red bussard. And the shots it's in feature oversized Miranda class ships and undersized Galaxy class ships.
 
It is visible. It is almost hard to tell from the Akira class, except it lacks red bussard. And the shots it's in feature oversized Miranda class ships and undersized Galaxy class ships.

The shot you’re describing is from the end of “A Call to Arms,” not “Sacrifice of Angels,” as SOA only showed CGI ships. And I’m pretty sure the Centaur is not in that fleet, because Buckner hadn’t built the model yet. They only used a combination of filming models, complete model kits, CGI low-rez models from FC, and Hallmark ornaments/Playmates toys for that fleet.
 
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The shot you’re describing is from the end of “A Call to Arms,” not “Sacrifice of Angels,” as SOA only showed CGI ships. And I’m pretty sure the Centaur is not in that fleet, because Buckner hadn’t built the model yet. They only used a combination of filming models, complete model kits, CGI low-rez models from FC, and Hallmark ornaments/Playmates toys for that fleet.
No, the episode I'm describing is Sacrifice of Angles, the 6th episode of season 6. And while the later shots of the battle may very well be CG (that is where you have the Akira class) the establishing shot is fairly static and definitely has the Centaur model in the fleet.
 
Both establishing shots of the fleet before the battle were definitely CG (One, Two-A, Two-B), and looking over the rest of the episode, I'm not seeing anything that looks like a model shot of the Federation fleet, never mind with a Centuar (excepting the two stock shots of the station at the very end of the episode).

According to the Talk Page on MA, the rationale for the Centaur being part of the battle is that Sisko gives an order to a Captain Reynolds (who isn't necessarily the same person as the captain of the Centaur, but that side lost out in the debate). Someone claimed there was a Centaur in the establishing shots I just linked to, but they all look like Akiras to me, and it'd be very, very weird to mix in one motion control ship in a shot that's otherwise entirely CG (minus the starbase in the background).
 
Yeah, I'm still open to the possibility it's there and perhaps very briefly, but in the many times I've watched the fleet and battle scenes, I haven't been able to place it. The Akira model has a number of features that easily set it apart from the Centaur, like the distinctive catamaran and the lower saucer bulge, such that even in wide shots I think it would be hard to confuse the two. Same with the Mirandas, some of whom have the extra impulse engines on their torpedo tubes (which I personally consider an SFX error, not a design variant :D)

Even allowing the inference that the Captain Reynolds mentioned in SOA dialogue is intended to be the same one who commanded the Centaur, that doesn't necessarily mean he was commanding that ship during the battle or that there was any intention to use the Centaur model when they already had enough ships to use. I would consider that rather a stretch myself.
 
No, the episode I'm describing is Sacrifice of Angles, the 6th episode of season 6. And while the later shots of the battle may very well be CG (that is where you have the Akira class) the establishing shot is fairly static and definitely has the Centaur model in the fleet.

The ‘large Mirandas and small Galaxies’ you describe is from ‘A Call to Arms:”

https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/5x26/calltoarms_940.jpg

The only other time we see a ship of the Centaur type is ‘Behind the Lines.:”

https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/6x04/behindthelines_000.jpg
 
The ‘large Mirandas and small Galaxies’ you describe is from ‘A Call to Arms:”

https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/5x26/calltoarms_940.jpg

The only other time we see a ship of the Centaur type is ‘Behind the Lines.:”

https://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/6x04/behindthelines_000.jpg
Well, I have never seen that episode so I have no idea what is in it. I have only watched episodes 1, 4, and 6 of season 6. And I just watched it and so I do understand what I am talking about. Please stop trying to say I watched a different episode that I did not watch.

And as for where the centaur is in the first shot, there are at least six of them scattered in the background. They very clearly do not have the red glowing bussards that the Akira class have. The later shots that are far more active definitely have the Akira class and no sign of the Centaur class. So what I saw was definitely in the first shot of episode 6 of season 6 of DS9. And I watched the whole battle scene and that is where I saw The mismatched Galaxy and Miranda class sizes.
 
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Well, I have never seen that episode so I have no idea what is in it. I have only watched episodes 1, 4, and 6 of season 6. And I just watched it and so I do understand what I am talking about. Please stop trying to say I watched a different episode that I did not watch.

That doesn’t change the fact that you were wrong about which episodes the Centaur model appeared in. The ‘oversized Miranda and undersized Galaxy’ ships were a trademark of that scene from a Call to Arms, and since that’s exactly how you described the scene, that’s what I posted. Stop being so defensive.

And as for where the centaur is in the first shot, there are at least six of them scattered in the background. They very clearly do not have the red glowing bussards that the Akira class have. The later shots that are far more active definitely have the Akira class and no sign of the Centaur class. So what I saw was definitely in the first shot of episode 6 of season 6 of DS9. And I watched the whole battle scene and that is where I saw The mismatched Galaxy and Miranda class sizes.

No, you are wrong. The Centaur model only appears in A Time to Stand and Behind the Lines, and it only appears by itself both times. You are welcome to post screencaps like I’ve done to prove me wrong.
 
That doesn’t change the fact that you were wrong about which episodes the Centaur model appeared in. The ‘oversized Miranda and undersized Galaxy’ ships were a trademark of that scene from a Call to Arms, and since that’s exactly how you described the scene, that’s what I posted. Stop being so defensive.



No, you are wrong. The Centaur model only appears in A Time to Stand and Behind the Lines, and it only appears by itself both times. You are welcome to post screencaps like I’ve done to prove me wrong.
I don't always believe Memory Alpha myself, but I checked the episode. The first Centaur appears at 1:55 and two more in the next second. The first Galaxy class ship has one to either side and one above. Then two more appear as the shot pans. They are only visible for a few seconds, but you can tell they are not Akira class because the front edge of the saucer is curved (Akira has that cutout) and there is not red for the bussards). The Akira class in the next shot when the ships attack very clearly has that cutout and the red bussards.

The next shot is at 12:55. Plenty of Akira class ships, but not a sign of Centaur class. In that shot everything looks pretty much in scale. Until the ships start moving past and then the Miranda and Excelsior saucers appear to be the same size. The next shot has the Defiant as large as a Miranda Class. The next shot is at 19:17. It shows the Defiant behind a Miranda and it is definitely out of scale. This would be the 8 deck Defiant. So there are several shots in this episode that clearly have scale issues. And the first FX shot clearly does not have Akira class and it appears to be Centaur class. I can't think of another class that looks like that.
 
Are you specifically referencing "Favor The Bold/Sacrifice of Angels" in these descriptions? Because I've looked over the TC screencaps recently and also watched the fleet scenes on YT and Netflix, and if the Centaur is there I've yet to find it. Given that some Mirandas in that battle sequence and also some of the later ones (like the big fleet battle in "Tears of the Prophets") have the aforementioned issues of extra impulse engines mounted on their weapon pods, I'm not convinced that a lack of visible bussards is enough of a clue. Some of the ships don't have a lot of normal visible effects (bussards/impulse engines) because they're only visible for a few seconds and not in the foreground.

So far as I've seen, the fleet shots in FTB/SOA including the following ships:

* Galaxies
* Akiras
* Excelsiors
* Mirandas
* Steamrunners
* Sabers (a few are visible briefly in SOA)
* The Defiant
* Strike fighters

This is consistent with the fleet used at the end of "A Time To Stand" which would have been before the Centaur appeared in "Rocks And Shoals." As far as I can tell, the only confirmed uses of the model were in that episode and "Behind the Lines." If I'm missing something then I'd love to see a visual confirmation.
 
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The end of “A Call to Arms” (season 5 finale) and the beginning of “A Time to Stand” (season 6 premiere) was the last time physical models were used in large moving fleet scenes. After that, they used a combination of filming models and model kits for random ships in orbit of Starbase 375 for establishing shots of the station. But once the huge fleet scenes started happening, the ships were all CGI, including “Sacrifice of Angels.” The Centaur was a physical model that was not made into a CGI model for this, therefore it was not in that episode.
 
Are you specifically referencing "Favor The Bold/Sacrifice of Angels" in these descriptions? Because I've looked over the TC screencaps recently and also watched the fleet scenes on YT and Netflix, and if the Centaur is there I've yet to find it. Given that some Mirandas in that battle sequence and also some of the later ones (like the big fleet battle in "Tears of the Prophets") have the aforementioned issues of extra impulse engines mounted on their weapon pods, I'm not convinced that a lack of visible bustards is enough of a clue. Some of the ships don't have a lot of normal visible effects (bussards/impulse engines) because they're only visible for a few seconds and not in the foreground.

So far as I've seen, the fleet shots in FTB/SOA including the following ships:

* Galaxies
* Akiras
* Excelsiors
* Mirandas
* Steamrunners
* Sabers (a few are visible briefly in SOA)
* The Defiant
* Strike fighters

This is consistent with the fleet used at the end of "A Time To Stand" which would have been before the Centaur appeared in "Rocks And Shoals." As far as I can tell, the only confirmed uses of the model were in that episode and "Behind the Lines." If I'm missing something than I'd love to see a visual confirmation.
If the candidates for the ship visible in the episode at the times I listed are Akira, Steamrunner, and Saber. None of them are visible. Steamrunner has unique nacelles that are merged with the saucer so that one is impossible, not to mention the notch in the bow. Saber has a large deflector dish as well as nice red bussards and the bow is not rounded. Akira is close, but it has that notch in the bow and noticeable red bussard (especially in the CG shots).

CziYvl3.jpg

The red circled ship is a Centaur. The upper green circle is a Saber, the lower two are Akira.

w0SOsaI.jpg

Mostly the same shot, but you can see two more Centaurs over next to this first Galaxy class

E3qOFXI.jpg

Here you can see 5 of the 6 Centaurs. There are a few Sabers and Akira in the fleet. I don't see any Steamrunners, but you can't mistake those build in nacelles for what we see in these images. The only ship model in use at that time was Centaur and it matches the configuration. The scene gets movement from the foreground fighters, but the background is fairly static and it pans so fast that my guess is this is not a CG shot but a more traditional composite. It was probably cheaper for the few second shot at the time. But I don't see how that ship could be anything other than the Centaur. Akira is the only one close and it has the obvious notch in the front which this ship lacks.

T1QVwoT.jpg

And here we have a shot from A Time To Stand that shows the Centaur from the same angel. The pod is nearly invisible and it has the same features as the images above. Clearly the same ship.

7H1ZGwH.jpg

And here we have another frame later in the shot that shows a different scaleing. The Centaur is clearly in the distance and considerably larger than the fighter.

H1tlts4.jpg

Another image. Note you can clearly see the windows on the bottom. There don't seem to be any shots with the top of the saucer in any detail.

KqI7oZ8.jpg

It is breaking off the attack and flying past the fighter. I think this frame is more indicative of the scale. Not that I trust FX scaling.

VL2eBM4.jpg

The ships quickly pass each other and the shot focuses on the Centaur flying away.

OFKiETc.jpg

To make this complete, we have 2 of Jein's Excelsior and the Centaur in this shot.

zwpV8BA.jpg

And in this shot we have 5 Mirandas and a Centaur. And you can see just a few of the windows on the top of the saucer. Not enough for any scale, but enough to know they were there. Oh, and notice the scale of the old Spacedock Office complex. Totally off from the original where those discs were 1 deck thick and those white squares were windows. And Defiant flies in front of it. And the Mirandas in the lower left look about the same size as the Excelsior in the previous shot.

So I think I have shot the Centaur is the same size as the Jem Hadar fighter out of the water. The FX team did not composite the shots that way. A lot of time you can't tell, but give that in one shot the very large Centaur is clearly behind the fighter and in the other it is circling it, I think the FX team kept the same size for all three episodes.

So, did anyone but me actually bring up the episodes and watch them? Or have all these comments been based on the stills you can find online?

My conclusion based on these images: There were at least 6 Centaur class ships (just in that one battle group) and the Centaur is 380 meters long and 210 meters wide (roughly). I think I'll have to dig out my Reliant and measure the roll bar and the other pieces and how they are connected and narrow in on a more exact size than from photos (always a horrible source for finding good measurements).
 
The end of “A Call to Arms” (season 5 finale) and the beginning of “A Time to Stand” (season 6 premiere) was the last time physical models were used in large moving fleet scenes. After that, they used a combination of filming models and model kits for random ships in orbit of Starbase 375 for establishing shots of the station. But once the huge fleet scenes started happening, the ships were all CGI, including “Sacrifice of Angels.” The Centaur was a physical model that was not made into a CGI model for this, therefore it was not in that episode.
Well, I think my last post pretty well refutes this.
 
No it doesn’t. All of the ships you circled in red are Akiras.
I beg to differ. As evidence here is a different shot that has Akira class in it and you can clearly see the difference in the leading edge of the saucer. They do not match so the ones I circled in red are NOT Akira.
8ca4u6O.jpg


Computers have a nice way of being consistent. So I can't see them rendering the Akira so completely different in two shots in the same episode.
 
Why would they create a huge CGI fleet and then throw in a physical model kit that they’d have to film? For whatever reason, those Akiras aren’t lit in that screencap. Don’t ask me why. But they’re Akiras. I can tell just by the way the nacelles are angled, the notch in the front of the saucer, and the hole underneath the saucer where the Akira’s deflector is located. I’m not sure why you aren’t seeing that.
 
If the candidates for the ship visible in the episode at the times I listed are Akira, Steamrunner, and Saber. None of them are visible. Steamrunner has unique nacelles that are merged with the saucer so that one is impossible, not to mention the notch in the bow. Saber has a large deflector dish as well as nice red bussards and the bow is not rounded. Akira is close, but it has that notch in the bow and noticeable red bussard (especially in the CG shots).

CziYvl3.jpg

The red circled ship is a Centaur. The upper green circle is a Saber, the lower two are Akira.

Mostly the same shot, but you can see two more Centaurs over next to this first Galaxy class

E3qOFXI.jpg

Here you can see 5 of the 6 Centaurs. There are a few Sabers and Akira in the fleet. I don't see any Steamrunners, but you can't mistake those build in nacelles for what we see in these images. The only ship model in use at that time was Centaur and it matches the configuration. The scene gets movement from the foreground fighters, but the background is fairly static and it pans so fast that my guess is this is not a CG shot but a more traditional composite. It was probably cheaper for the few second shot at the time. But I don't see how that ship could be anything other than the Centaur. Akira is the only one close and it has the obvious notch in the front which this ship lacks.

I'll have to disagree. The green "Saber" is actually a Steamrunner, because it has the drooping deflector dish that hangs between the nacelles. The Saber's deflector is built into its saucer. You've circled several other Steamrunners, along with one of the correct Sabers. The fact that some SFX shots are missing for the Akiras is not relevant IMO, because the pan only shows the ships for a few seconds each and there are similar omissions in other fleet shots. None of the Excelsiors have lit nacelles even though we saw them as such in other DS9 episodes.

Proof:

fhFFc1v.jpg


3xcR0Zy.jpg


Here's one of the Steamrunners visible as part of the fleet, and as seen above there's others that can be spotted in the fleet scenes. And when the Klingons jump in, there are a few Steamrunners seen in the midst of the Dominion formation. One is seen here in the middle, and another passes below the Galaxy towards the right I believe.

J9Oe4Tj.jpg


Here is a wrecked Steamrunner from FC, showing an interesting angle of where the deflector is:

cQ9uIyC.jpg


And the red circle ships are all Akiras. The Akira has the distinctive bulges on top and side from the catamaran, and the deflector is also nestled inside a distinctive bulge under the saucer. The Centaur doesn't have these features, as it's based on the Excelsior saucer and the bulky torpedo pod is much further back. On top of that, the two ships have entirely different nacelle structures even if some of the fleet angles look similar in their orientation. You can this plainly in the pic above, with an Akira on the right of the formation.

More proof:

VxKCHLR.jpg


Here are some pics of the USS Thunderchild in FC, showing good views of the distinctive saucer design and the catamaran:

wA23hoS.jpg


WhEA80H.jpg


D3k8oTt.jpg


And here are some similar views of the Akira that appeared to fight the Romulans in VOY "Message in A Bottle."

cRQJLCk.jpg


W8A9cBZ.jpg


HWK8kQa.jpg


You can clearly see in this last one that the front of the deflector bulge has a distinctive "fork" and the overall shape is consistent with the Akiras seen in DS9. The Centaur's saucer is much rounder and has no underside bulge or places for the pylons to connect that would be visible on the dorsal half, as the Akira does.

8c1mdNw.jpg
 
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