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Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg!!!

I'm curious about how much of the plot a writer is told to use when hired to write a book. I've heard it said, for example, that the editors told Peter David to kill Janeway at the end of this book. Is the plot pretty much sketched out as well?

If you're going to hire an architect, why would you design the house yourself beforehand? You might have a few general ideas about what kind of house you want, you might tell them you want the design to include certain specific features, but the whole reason you hire an architect is so they can do the actual designing and you don't have to.

It's the same way with editors and writers. Coming up with plots is something that writers do, so there's no reason why editors would do it themselves when they're going to hire writers anyway. Sometimes editors will have certain specific plot points that they want to occur within a novel -- character A is introduced, character B dies, characters C and D get married, planet E joins the Federation -- but they hire us to come up with the actual stories that contain those plot points. The editors have approval over our outlines, they can tell us to revise them and do Y instead of X, but we're the ones they hire to do the actual work of plotting as well as writing.

For instance, in SCE: Aftermath, I was told to introduce the character of Tev and to have Commander Gomez reach a certain point in her arc by the end of the story, but figuring out how those things happened, as well as the rest of the story they happened in, was my job.
 
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The editors will sometimes suggest a plotline or ask for a story based on a general premise, but the development of the story outline, the plot, the details, etc., all rest on the author. We are not handed "plots" and asked to flesh them out. It doesn't work like that.
 
Thanks for the good answers! Interesting information about how these longer, multi-author story arcs are done.
 
Deleted post because I missed that there was a new page. What Christopher and Dave said. :)
 
I'm curious about how much of the plot a writer is told to use when hired to write a book. I've heard it said, for example, that the editors told Peter David to kill Janeway at the end of this book. Is the plot pretty much sketched out as well?
If a writer isn't inspired by a plot or the characters he/she has to use, I'd think it would be a challenge to write with passion and enthusiasm. I'm not saying that's what happened here--just wondering. :)

From what I know of Peter David's way of working (read his omnibus of articles called "But I Digress..." some day), and his very public low opinions on VOY, I'd suspect he told Margaret Clark, "I'll only include Janeway in this book if I can do something really nasty to her."

You make it sound like the ST authors are shackled galley slaves or something.(A whole new meaning to galley proofs.)

The direction of the serialized ST books would impose a few restrictions on the authors, sure - to ensure it fits with the loose future arc, and what's happened already. David George tells a great story of how he shocked Marco with first one, and then another, thing he did to Kira in WoDS9 (going way beyond the original proposal) - and which changed the way the next few novels would unfold.

But the standalone books are a product of the authors' imagination. Either his or her proposed story is approved or it's rejected outright, or the editor works with the author to tweak certain elements until it is approved by CBS Consumer Products.

The writing process, and the balance of author/editor/CBS influence would differ for every ST book.
 
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The editors will sometimes suggest a plotline or ask for a story based on a general premise, but the development of the story outline, the plot, the details, etc., all rest on the author. We are not handed "plots" and asked to flesh them out. It doesn't work like that.
What about something more arc heavy like the DS9R? Because that whole arc seems to be pretty complicated and intricate.
 
What about something more arc heavy like the DS9R? Because that whole arc seems to be pretty complicated and intricate.

like Ian said:

David George tells a great story of how he shocked Marco with first one, and then another, thing he did to Kira in WoDS9 (going way beyond the original proposal) - and which changed the way the next few novels would unfold.

though I think it was about the Founders as well.

:)
 
What about something more arc heavy like the DS9R? Because that whole arc seems to be pretty complicated and intricate.

In the case of something like that or Vanguard, it's a collaboration. The editor has a broad overall plan for the series arc -- one that may have been largely developed by a writer with the editor's approval, as with a novel outline -- but the plan is flexible enough that the writers of individual installments can come up with new ideas and change the path and structure of the overall story. Whatever key developments the editor wants to occur may then end up occurring earlier or later or differently than planned, or may be thrown out altogether if something more interesting comes along.

Bottom line, the editors hire us to be creative and tell stories, so it would be counterproductive to do things that restricted our ability to do that, such as imposing the kind of predetermined plots and directives that the general public seems to think are being imposed. Our editors want us to come up with things that surprise them, because that will keep the readers surprised too. If we go too far afield, they'll rein us in with their notes during the approval/revision process. But they don't put limits on us before we even begin.

Ultimately, the best outcome is if it looks like it was all planned in advance even when it was the result of trial and error and serendipity.
 
I finished the booh last week and thought it was OK.
My 18 year-old self from 1991 would've been sad to hear that...as back then I adored Vendetta.
There were too many sarcastic replies that were supposed to be attemts at humor. There was only one decent joke in the book (the new General Order One).

I'd just finished Q&A the week before and I realized why the TNG relaunch doesn't feel right...just too many of the TNG crew are missing. Riker, Troi and Data. It sort of feels like a dead horse.
 
I don't think that's necessarily the problem, DS9 also lost most of it's characters but it's Relaunch was just as good as the main series.
 
Interesting thread. I have to chime in and agree with almost everything everyone else has said. But I think you totally hit the nail on the head: the DS9 relaunch did not have these problems.

I just finished reading the TNG "relaunch" novels as well. I have to say, I was really looking forward to this after the excellent "A time to..." series. That was a very coherent series of novels that introduced some really interesting characters and situations.

I was looking forward to seeing how they replaced the members of the TNG cast that were leaving, sort of like they did in the DS9R. Really, the way to make this work is, they needed to introduce well-rounded characters that we end up loving as much as the ones they are replacing. They don't necessarily have to be perfect but they need to "fit" and become the new TNG crew.

They totally did that with DS9, Shar and Taranatar are as much a part of DS9 as Sisko or Jadzia to me now.

So, anyway, then we get Resistance, where there is one unlikeable character (T'Lana), which is risky but interesting - and two other likeable but blah senior staff replacement characters who die at the end of the book. With T'Lana though, you can kind of at least see how she could end up fitting in eventually and becoming a really interesting character.

I actually thought Resistance was an okay book. The only part I really hated is how they pulled a cloaking device out of their ass at the end. Worf calls Admiral Janeway and she gives him, essentially, a "cheat code" :guffaw:that enables the Enterprise to have cloaking technology. What????? :wtf::wtf::wtf:

And I thought her "female former chief of security" character was a little too much like Vale, or Tasha for that matter - a very petite and harmless looking young woman who (seemingly unexpectedly) is in the role of security chief. She seemed like a cross between Tasha and Wesley Crusher.

For some reason, she reminded me a lot of Christine Vale (who I really liked), and also made me wonder just how many security chiefs the Enterprise had in between Worfs. :)

I liked Q&A the best of the bunch. The character development stuff was very good, and in my opinion exactly what the series needed more of. The new characters KRAD introduced were interesting and likeable, and you could see how they could fit in and eventually become "part" of the crew.

My only complaint about Q&A is that I thought a little too much time was spent on setup, and not enough on payoff. That is, too much of the novel was spent flashing back and fitting all of Q's previous appearances into the story, plus the time spent showing that the anomalies were happening "everywhere" by having people in all corners of the galaxy witness them. The actual adventure with Picard, Q, and the end of the universe seemed too brief by comparison.

Kind of like when somebody tells one of those really long convoluted jokes with a really short punchline. (Those were popular back when I was in high school. Intentionally annoying jokes. If you don't know what I mean, just pretend that you do, otherwise I may have to tell one and you will all hate me.)

I really liked the character bits that were thrown into it though. It was a good book, I just didn't like it as much as I thought I would.

(One other aside, KRAD - why did you pick such hard names to remember and spell???? :lol: )

Then along came Before Dishonor. It really felt like this book steamrolled through all the character development that had gone before it. The TNG characters seemed off, even. Picard felt more like Calhoun than Picard. (For that matter, Calhoun and his DC Comics Kirk seem like the same character to me too.) Which is especially strange because Picard's "schtick" has traditionally been that he was the "by the book" captain. (I know, the movies kind of changed this.)

Also, I felt like the "mutiny" (justified or not) completely damaged the new characters' credibility in the eyes of the reader, not to mention in the eyes of the TNG crew.

The new characters (who shall not be spelled) introduced by KRAD seemed completely different in Peter David's novel, except for their names. And they grew in the opposite direction from where I think they ought to grow to be successful. They need to (eventually) feel like they are integrating and fitting into the crew - instead this book drove a massive wedge between the "new guard" and the "old guard." And by the end of the book, I really didn't feel like it was really resolved. In fact, one of the new characters, T'Lana, had to leave as a result, which means that none of the new characters introduced at the start of the relaunch in Resistance even lasted through all of the books. It felt like a lot of setup from Resistance will never pay off.

And don't get me started on what he did to Janeway. I am not a big Voyager fan, but that seemed pretty cold to me. I kept wondering "What about the Voyager relaunch" - especially since Janeway and 7 were two of the most interesting characters on that show. I thought it would be interesting to have her as a recurring admiral. Guess not.

In short, Before Dishonor wasn't a terrible book but it had some really bad choices I think. I actually enjoyed reading it, it was a quick read and an exciting, though often annoying, adventure story.

I think Peter David jumped the shark at some point recently. His NF books have been continually more over-the-top silly and BD felt like more of the same. He used to be one of my favorite writers, and I loved how he handled the TNG crew in particular. His characterization of them used to be spot-on, but in BD it felt way off.

Anyhow, I think my expectations were set really high with the DS9 relaunch and A Time to... and I really felt let down. Here's hoping it will improve.

I was really excited when I first heard about the TNG relaunch. J. M. Dillard, KRAD, and Peter David - 3 of my favorite Trek writers. The Borg and Q - two of TNG's best adversaries.

What could possibly go wrong? :)
 
DorkBoy [TM];1390810 said:
(One other aside, KRAD - why did you pick such hard names to remember and spell???? :lol: )

Television tends toward names of one or two syllables. Every once in a while you'll get a three-syllable name, but when you do, they're generally three quick syllables (O'Brien, Pulaski). Speaking as someone from an ethnic background that favors multisyllabic names, I found this tiresome and slightly offensive.

So it's not a coincidence that so many of my original characters in Trek have names like Takeshewada, Rosenhaus, Shabalala, Voyskunsky, Kadohata, Leybenzon, Stolovitzky, Alamanzar, Laubenthal, Jazayerli, Gonzalez, Piniero, Hostetler Richman, Shostakova, Mazibuko, Rodzinski, Czierniewski, Balidemaj, Abramowitz, Piotrowski, Haznedl, Feliciano, Lipinski, and so on.

Having gone through my life with the last name DeCandido, I confess to not really getting the whole "hard to remember and pronounce" thing. :D
 
My surname is one syllable and people still pronounce it wrong! So I can only imagine what you deal with! lol

BTW, I think "Shabalala" is my favorite of your character names. What was the inspiration for it? (Assuming you didn't just make it up because it sounds cool, of course!)
 
BTW, I think "Shabalala" is my favorite of your character names. What was the inspiration for it? (Assuming you didn't just make it up because it sounds cool, of course!)

Shabalala was named after the founder and lead singer of the South African a cappella group Ladysmith Black Mambazo.
 
I finally finished "Before Dishonor" and in contradiction to most readers here, I think it's an overall enjoyable novel which preety much reminds me of the early NF-novels. Fan-Fiction-style with heavy Small-Universe-Syndrom, an outrageous, exaggerated story and lots of slapstick-style humor. So basically exactly what I expected and why I love Peter Davids stories. The scene around "Acting Commodore Picard" (Did i miss a memo?) alone was worth the 7 €, I almost had tears in my eyes from laughing, something I hadn't had in a Trekbook in quite some time.
Overall I concur with the majority of expressed opinions, the TNG-Anniversary did not match (The maybe setted too high) expectations, especially when you compare it to the outstanding novels from the TOS-Anniversary, but "Before Dishonor" imo does not derserve that overwhelming amount of hatred it recieves not only in this board. Thanks to Mr. David for some highly entertaining hours, I'm really looking forward to your next novels.
 
Fan-Fiction-style with heavy Small-Universe-Syndrom, an outrageous, exaggerated story and lots of slapstick-style humor. So basically exactly what I expected and why I love Peter Davids stories.

Its funny how different people's tastes can be, because that pretty much describes all the things I dislike about PAD's Trek novels. These facets have always been in his Trek books, but it seems that they used to be more tempered. Or perhaps I'm just growing less tolerant of them.
 
Fan-Fiction-style with heavy Small-Universe-Syndrom, an outrageous, exaggerated story and lots of slapstick-style humor. So basically exactly what I expected and why I love Peter Davids stories.

Its funny how different people's tastes can be, because that pretty much describes all the things I dislike about PAD's Trek novels. These facets have always been in his Trek books, but it seems that they used to be more tempered. Or perhaps I'm just growing less tolerant of them.

I'm with you and I think maybe it's Peter that has changed. I reread "Vendetta" last year and it was just as I remembered. Same with "Imzadi". This one sadly felt like fanfic as people said.
 
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