Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg!!!

[LightningStorm]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Baerbel Haddrell said:
It rubbed me the wrong way when it was mentioned that it was right that Paris shucked the fly-boy attitude. Paris loves flying. I don`t think it is right to belittle that with vocabulary like “fly-boy”. It also doesn`t mean that pilots are less responsible than other Starfleet officers with other jobs. Paris is passionate about flying, which is something beautiful, something to be encouraged, like when engineers are passionate about what happens in the engine room. Of course also Paris, the pilot, can be a responsible family man.

Of course he can be both a pilot and career oriented and a family man. But my point is that I totally see why he might choose his child over his career, even if that meant giving up said career altogether. A decision which should not and would not be made lightly. This has nothing to do with any idea of pilots being "less responsible" than anyone else. It's just that with Paris specifically his character was clearly portrayed as having the stereotypical "fly-boy" mentality, which he just as clearly dropped when Miral was minutes away from being born.

Also:

Spoiler: DS9 Relaunch Similarity

Consider Sisko, who did the same thing in Unity, by giving up his career and the promotion to admiral when he came back so that he can be at home with his wife and new-born child. Sisko surely didn't have any sort of lack of responsibility in his personality and he too made a conscious decision to put family before career. Something I (as a career oriented man with a daughter on the way) can COMPLETELY understand.

 

[Trent Roman]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Re: Pairing off the leads. I do understand why the producers choose to do what they do. Sexual tension adds a type of suspense to the show, and perhaps a certain gossipy quality which may not be particularly commendable but people certainly like to gossip. The problem is that these pairings often seem so forced, so trite, so cliché, that it gets to the point where the moment you spot a man and a woman on film you figure they'll be shacking up by the end. I was happy when, watching "Deep Blue Sea" (an otherwise mediocre giant-shark film) the female lead dies in the climactic battle, because it totally undoes the expected happy ending for the male and female leads. Plus, some of the examples listed, like X-Files or Lois and Clark, or others like Angel/Cordelia, display to me the problems when that sexual tension just takes over the show and inteferes with storytelling (I have this problem with "Lost" on occasion, with the love triangle that should have been resolved after the second season). Finally, the stereotypical match-up bothers me because it seems to tie-in with the notion held by a surprising number of people that you can't have close friends of the opposite sex, which as far as I'm concerned is total bull. Yes, I do agree that Mulder and Scully, Booth and Bones, or whoever else you might want to point to make great teams, but why must that complimentariness always be romantic and/or sexual? There's no reason why people couldn't be able to care for each other, as colleagues or friends, in a platonic fashion, and it would avoid buying into this myth that you can't have male/female friends without something sexual going on beneath the surface.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Octavia]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I'm perfectly happy to engage in a discussion about the Trek line. I'm not willing to participate in an insult-fest. Everything I quoted was either a) an insult or b) a lie.

You want to complain about the work, that's one thing. Insulting the people producing it, however, is a different kettle of fish.

Having said that, I do want to point out a thing or two.

Both AuntKate and Octavia took pains to point out that the Voyager fanbase is predominantly female, as if this makes it different from the rest of the Trek fanbase. First of all, it doesn't. All the Treks have had a significant female fanbase. Secondly, the editor in charge of the book under discussion is Margaret Clark.

I was also amused that Octavia was complaining about the death of Janeway in the same post that she was complaining that there should be no reset buttons. Not to put too fine a point on it, but killing off an opening-credits regular on one of the series makes it pretty clear that there is no reset button, and if the character is revived in some way, it's a huge reset button to put "Year of Hell" to shame. You can't have it both ways.

Those last two complaints are mine, and I don't think that they are a lie, or that they are insulting.

The relaunch was bad writing - crappy, if you like. I'm sorry, but it was. There's no other credible conclusion for writing based so much on stupidly ludicrous coincidence, ridiculous plotlines, and overused plot devices. If I didn't like some of Golden's previous work, you could write me off as being prejudiced against the writer, but the fact that the relaunch had such very terrible plotting/writing/what have you is not an insult, nor is it a lie. It is not an insult because it is directed at Golden's writing and not her character. It is not a lie because I thoroughly believe it to be true. You might feel that it was the best piece of Trek you've read in twenty years. I might disagree with you, but I wouldn't call you a liar over it.

As to the comment about motives - that's going back to the insanity thing. Expecting big changes when previous events don't warrant it. I was actually lying in bed last night thinking that I had picked the wrong word, and I apologise for that. "Motives" was not appropriate. I don't question the desire of the writers/editors to produce a good product. I do question their judgement - and poor judgement in what constituted a believable and interesting storyline is what led to me dropping out of the fandom.

I will not buy or watch pulp. There is a lot of very good SF out there, as I'm sure you know, so there is a lot of other stuff out there that beats Trek lit in quality. That's annoying, because part of me still loves Trek and wants it to prosper, and I can't see it doing that if it doesn't hold itself to higher standards. It's also vaguely insulting, because the impression I get from things like (both book and series are guilty here) Seven's emotional failsafe (in truth, a Seven's-about-to-get-it-on!-failsafe), Harry Kim's artist girlfriend inexplicably turning into a wandering musician/spy, Kevin's miraculous ability to find Borg debris and the rest, is that my loyalty to the Trek brand is being taken for granted. It makes me feel like someone, somewhere, is saying: "Alright, this isn't very good. It could be a lot better, but she'll buy it anyway."

Sorry. I won't. A badly written product remains a badly written product even if it has the words "Star Trek" emblazoned across its cover.

As to complaints about the death of Janeway - yeah, I'm not happy. I admit it. But to kill her off in a TNG novel and give only a tiny iota of the repercussions this has on the rest of the Voyager crew... did you honestly think that any Voyager fan would be happy with that? If you simply must kill her off, at least have the decency to do it in a way that isn't insulting to Voyager fans. If you had done that, I'd still be complaining about killing her off, but I wouldn't be this fucking annoyed about it. It reads, again, like "she'll buy it anyway..."

I asked before if anyone would think of doing the same to Picard. Ha! I don't think so, mate. So what's the difference? I'm genuinely interested. Do you really feel that there is no iota of reason for complaint by Voyager fans here?

 

[Octavia]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

KRAD said:
^ You're missing my point -- I wasn't complaining about what you and Octavia said, it's how you said it. It's perfectly possible to express one's distaste for a line of fiction without saying that the editors are incompetent, ignorant, prejudiced, and have limited imaginations, and that the writers are crappy and slanted.

I do apologize for lumping both of your quotes together, but I read them all at once, and the aggregate effect of seeing my friends and colleagues being personally maligned was considerable.

Alright, that's understandable. Personal insults should definitely be out, I agree, but I don't think that you should get to class robust criticism under that umbrella. Kevin chewing on Borg debris (as in the Voyager relaunch) is a terribly unbelievable "coincidence" of an idea that strains credulity far, far past breaking point. It is bad (even crappy) writing, and it remains that way whether Golden is your friend or not. That the editors (whoever they may be) should have been competent enough to pick up on that aspect and get Golden to toss it remains true whether said editors are your friends or not.

Look, believe it or not, I'm generally a really polite person. Overly polite, in fact. I know you've got no reason to believe it, but when I get snarky it's because I'm really, really frustrated, and because I feel taken for granted or ignored. In this case, it's all three.

I tried the polite version of things in writing to Paramount and so on years back to express my displeasure with certain aspects of the writing. I tried waiting patiently, and checking the Pocket Book site, and the FAQ here that says (and I paraphrase): "Please be patient if your favourite series seems to be ignored! We're working on it!". I've been patient for years now, with bugger all payback, and I do feel justified in being a little grumpy now. It feels like my good will is being taken for granted.

Seriously. Would it be that difficult to add a small paragraph of explanation to the existing FAQ explaining the dearth of Voyager? That would at least show that you are aware of the problem, and that the present boilerplate isn't just there to fob people off.

That simple tactic would probably have kept me polite for at least another year. And it would take two minutes to do.

 

[Defcon]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Octavia said:
Seriously. Would it be that difficult to add a small paragraph of explanation to the existing FAQ explaining the dearth of Voyager? That would at least show that you are aware of the problem, and that the present boilerplate isn't just there to fob people off.

That simple tactic would probably have kept me polite for at least another year. And it would take two minutes to do.

The FAQ isn't made by Pocket Books, it was created years ago by Steve Mollmann (now he is a Star Trek author, but back then he wasn't) and from time to time he posts an update, but Pocket doesn't really have an influence in what is in the FAQ and what not.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

There is a lack of Voyager because Christie Golden is working on other Pocket projects. When she has fulfilled those she will either return to Trek and provide more Voyager relaunch books (of questionable quality - and this is not an insult or a criticism, merely an opinion) or Margaret Clark will find another author, or group of authors to bring Voyager back.

The truth of the matter is that we have no idea what is going on at Pocket and they have no reason to inform us (although it would be nice and provide more fodder for debate) but Christie and Margaret could be talking about the Voyager relaunch line now and what to do with it pre- and post-Destiny.

 

[Octavia]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Edit: Argh! Too slow. This is meant to reply to Defcon...


^That kind of makes me feel worse. If Pocket doesn't have an influence about what is in the FAQ, how can I know it is accurate, or updated as often as it could be? Things change, after all...

And what prevents the authors posting here from clarifying a point of contention in a place (like the FAQ) where that clarification can be easily found, if they know better?

I'm a hardened, died-in-the-wool atheist. Arguments based on "You'll see when it happens (and then you'll be sorry)" and "Why can't you trust us, you big meanie" don't cut much ice with me, I'm afraid. A little bit of clarification and openness wouldn't do any harm, and would undercut much of the hostility that has been building up in the Voyager fandom over the past few years.

 

[Defcon]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Of course things can be changed (and have been) in the FAQ when someone (authors, editors and readers alike) points out something thats wrong, missing, or outdated. The only thing I wanted to point out is, that the FAQ is not an official release by Pocket Books. Sorry if i didn't made myself clear in my earlier post.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I was going to post my own review but then I saw this thread and decided to join the fun...or in the case of Before Dishonor the lack of fun. I agree with Vixen's original post this was a most disapointing book. Parts of it read like a tradiontional wacky Peter David book, but others, most of it felt like really bad fan fiction! I just didn't buy a good 90 percent of the book. There was so much FORCED tension in the book that I nearly chose to stop reading but was intrested in seeing how it ended.

One of the main facets of the book was the so-called evolution of the Borg...an interesting concept but just plain ridiculous. So Pluto is now gone in the TrekVerse and Janeway is "Dead"? I dunno the Borg have attempted to change before and have always at some point reverted back to their old selves.

Another aspect I didn't like was the mutiny...another interesting concept that I thought wasn't executed properly in thet story and seemed overblown. I understsand what those officers were attempting to accomplish but it didn't play out like that. I would have to say that overall this was the most disapointing book that I've read in the past two years of strong Trek books!

 

[Quark's Lobe]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Just finished it. Thought it started out well enough but kind of petered out by the end (no pun intended). The most entertaining part of the book must have been the page blatantly poking fun at Richard Arnold and the troubles PAD had with him while writing Vendetta. That was funny stuff, particularly Seven's responses.

 

[Keogh]

I finished reading this book two days ago. Basically I agree with Vixen's review. I didn't care too much about this book. I particulary hated the 'mutiny' part. I just hate that suddenly the admiralty all dislike Picard. In TNG with a few exceptions like Nechayev, Pressman, Kennely, etc. I thought he got a long nicely with the admiralty.
In Preemptive strike, Nechayev and Picard seemingly were quite pleasant to each other.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Keogh said:
I particulary hated the 'mutiny' part.

You were supposed to hate it. I've seen mutiny in the workplace. It's always unpleasant on both sides, and even for the bystanders, because often both sides are right. And wrong.

I just hate that suddenly the admiralty all dislike Picard. In TNG with a few exceptions like Nechayev, Pressman, Kennely, etc. I thought he got a long nicely with the admiralty.

Picard's had a bit of a bad run: "First Contact", "Insurrection", "At Time..." mini-series, "Nemesis" and the book relaunch. He hasn't had the complete trust of the admiralty for a long time.

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

You were supposed to hate it.

As a waste of trees? because that's how it comes across - Picard is one of the heroes of the book, there is no tension because events are not going to prove him to be wrong, it's a complete waste of paper.

as the Borg destroyed the enterprise and he died, Picard thought - those people, the ones that causal readers have never heard of - they were right all along.

 

[LightningStorm]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Therin of Andor said:

Keogh said:
I particulary hated the 'mutiny' part.

You were supposed to hate it.

Yes, but I don't think the intention was to hate it in the manner that most people here seem to have hated it.

As an example. I'll use T'Lana. She seemed to be created as a character people were supposed to hate. One of those "you love to hate them" type of characters. This so-called mutiny however, while it was supposed to be that way, quite frankly failed at it and just made it come across as a literal mutiny and was a scene that instead of being filled with angst was, well, IMO simply stupid and a complete waste of page space, time, and completely destroyed the characters involved. T'Lana went from "a bitch, that I love to read about" to "a horrible creation of a character that I never want to read about again."

I doubt alienating readers was the intent.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I have to agree with the above posters. The mutiny subplot was a waste of space. In order for it to work in any real, or believable way, the mutineers would have had to have been sympathetic in some way and had a valid reason for doing what they did, so that--while we the readers know that Jean-Luc is right--we can understand thier position as being valid and logical from thier POV. As it stands the mutiny makes no sense at all. It was quite clear well prior to the mutiny that following orders in this instance would be suicidal. Picard's plan may have been risky, but blindly following orders would have been disasterous. The mutineers look like unthinking idiots rather than sympathetic characters who felt thier duty was at odds with Picard's plans. The whole sequence was a waste of space.

 

[kimc]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

No more treating my favourite series like it's a dead elephant over whose body other Trek incarnations have open season to plunder for parts like hyenas on the Serengeti.

I love this quote! May I use it for my sig?

As usual I agree with Aunt Kate - no this is not a recording and I think Octavia is spot on as well!

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I have to agree with the above posters. The mutiny subplot was a waste of space. In order for it to work in any real, or believable way, the mutineers would have had to have been sympathetic in some way and had a valid reason for doing what they did, so that--while we the readers know that Jean-Luc is right--we can understand thier position as being valid and logical from thier POV. As it stands the mutiny makes no sense at all. It was quite clear well prior to the mutiny that following orders in this instance would be suicidal. Picard's plan may have been risky, but blindly following orders would have been disasterous. The mutineers look like unthinking idiots rather than sympathetic characters who felt thier duty was at odds with Picard's plans. The whole sequence was a waste of space.

It doesn't help that one of them is willing to use torture (or at the least suggest it).

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I would have expected Kadohata, considering how long she's been on the ship, to have sided with Picard and the "loyal ones", for lack of a better term. Instead, she's going to ally with the mentally challenged Security Chief and the Vulcan with an agenda.

But she also allied with several respected Admirals.

Although... The first book in which Kadohata appears, she has recently recommenced work after a pregnancy, and she found herself reacting differently, so I'm wondering if she will be shown to have some level of post natal depression. Prior to the new baby, maybe she would have sided with Picard? Certainly, I was almost expecting such a reveal at the end of "Before Dishonor".

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

But she also allied with several respected Admirals.

But they are undermined because they are used to constantly crack one-liners or play straight man for rather unfunny gags (PADs humour works in the NF books, it just seems forced here).

 

[AuntKate]

I'm curious about how much of the plot a writer is told to use when hired to write a book. I've heard it said, for example, that the editors told Peter David to kill Janeway at the end of this book. Is the plot pretty much sketched out as well?

If a writer isn't inspired by a plot or the characters he/she has to use, I'd think it would be a challenge to write with passion and enthusiasm. I'm not saying that's what happened here--just wondering.