Spoilers Batwoman - Season 2
- Thread starter dahj
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So... about what I expected. Ryan is still Batwoman. Kate is back, but is written out as a regular, with the option for future guest appearances. Jacob leaving is no surprise after they closed down the Crows part of the narrative.
I wasn't sure what to expect about Alice. I thought she might sacrifice herself to bring Kate back, though I guess saving Kate's life still worked pretty well as a redemptive act. I was torn on whether it would work better for Alice to wake up and pull Kate out of the water or vice-versa. The former would've helped redeem Alice, while the latter would've been a nice way to show that Kate was back, and to redeem her for not saving Beth the first time.
I suppose Alice's story arc has been pretty much resolved, but I could see her coming back into play as her redemptive journey continues, or perhaps she could get drawn in by next year's main villain. That would be a bit repetitive after this season, though.
That twist at the end about Ryan's mother being alive felt a bit contrived. First Alice makes a big deal about how Ryan "killed" her mother in childbirth, then suddenly she turns around and says nope, she's fine? I guess it makes sense that she was lying the first time to hurt Ryan, but it still feels weird. Also, it's pretty soap-operatic. Couldn't we just see Ryan dedicate herself to helping others, instead of giving her some more personal angst to obsess over?
Luke's debut as Batwing was a bit cursory in the midst of everything else. Tavaroff/Menace is Batwing's arch-nemesis in the comics, but their climactic confrontation amounted to one punch. And between the Batmobile and this suit, that's twice this season they've just stumbled upon a valuable asset they didn't know was already sitting in the Batcave. They really need to do a proper inventory over the summer break.
I wasn't sure what to expect about Alice. I thought she might sacrifice herself to bring Kate back, though I guess saving Kate's life still worked pretty well as a redemptive act. I was torn on whether it would work better for Alice to wake up and pull Kate out of the water or vice-versa. The former would've helped redeem Alice, while the latter would've been a nice way to show that Kate was back, and to redeem her for not saving Beth the first time.
I suppose Alice's story arc has been pretty much resolved, but I could see her coming back into play as her redemptive journey continues, or perhaps she could get drawn in by next year's main villain. That would be a bit repetitive after this season, though.
That twist at the end about Ryan's mother being alive felt a bit contrived. First Alice makes a big deal about how Ryan "killed" her mother in childbirth, then suddenly she turns around and says nope, she's fine? I guess it makes sense that she was lying the first time to hurt Ryan, but it still feels weird. Also, it's pretty soap-operatic. Couldn't we just see Ryan dedicate herself to helping others, instead of giving her some more personal angst to obsess over?
Luke's debut as Batwing was a bit cursory in the midst of everything else. Tavaroff/Menace is Batwing's arch-nemesis in the comics, but their climactic confrontation amounted to one punch. And between the Batmobile and this suit, that's twice this season they've just stumbled upon a valuable asset they didn't know was already sitting in the Batcave. They really need to do a proper inventory over the summer break.
I read the Entertainment Weekly article about Dougray Scott's departure, and they confirm that Alice will still be in the cast next season and will have more business with Mary, as they're the only Kane family members left in the show.
I hope Sophie sticks around. I'm not sure what role she would play without the Crows, but I'd hate to lose the stunning Meagan Tandy as a regular. Maybe they'll follow through on the hints of flirtation we've seen between Ryan and Sophie.
I hope Sophie sticks around. I'm not sure what role she would play without the Crows, but I'd hate to lose the stunning Meagan Tandy as a regular. Maybe they'll follow through on the hints of flirtation we've seen between Ryan and Sophie.
I suspected as much when he wasn't in the final two episodes of the season.
Can't say I will be sad to see the character go - it seemed like half of the time he was growling or yelling and the character needed to grow into something more.
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Never a good sign (for an already low rated series) when its best actor leaves, or the hack showrunners prove they never had a clue about writing this character.
I don't have high expectations for this series so I thought the finale was decent enough. It was stuffed, with a lot going on, and the pacing was so fast it didn't give me much time to breathe, much less think too deeply about (if one cared to) about what happened, which I imagine was by design.
I thought the scenes with Ryan and Alice, together, and separate, were some of the strongest in the finale. I am glad there was something of a resolution to Kate's story, and we got the moment where Kate hands off the mantle to Ryan, even though she didn't need the endorsement to be Batwoman, which a good part of her story in this episode-and I'm guessing her inaugural season-was all about. I thought Ryan's speech before the parole board was her best moment in the episode. That didn't feel as soap box as I think this series can get. Before that, I liked Ryan's doubts and admission that she couldn't beat Kate. It was a nice dilemma she had to overcome.
I thought Rachel Skarsten gave the best acting performance this episode. I also liked the guy playing Black Mask, though I don't think he was given that much to do, and I wish his mask had red eyes like they sometimes do in the comic; also that the mask was even more stylized than it was. It didn't look as impressive to me when he was wearing it as it came across initially. I did like how Alice burned him with the acid and now the mask has melded to his face.
I thought Luke's transformation into Batwing was rushed. I'm not the biggest fan of the suit, or that his moment of heroism was immediately undercut by his jet pack going out and landing unceremoniously with Mary on top of him. Johnson delivered the 'justice' line well, though I don't think it's enough to tie a bow on what he's experienced at the hands of Tavaroff. Venomed Tavaroff looked too comical and his comeuppance was over too quickly. I thought Gotham's Bane was a better design. Perhaps it would be nice if Batwoman's designers looked more to that series which I thought did a nice job-from what I saw-with their designs, especially now that it appears that some bigger comics baddies are coming to town in Season 3.
It wouldn't have hurt either to show Batwing helping stop the gangs and rioters later on. Also didn't get why Ryan just didn't throw on a black suit and something to cover her face and go out to fight instead when the episode first started.
I do think that Ryan, Luke, and Mary have developed a nice working relationship, and there's potential there, with the right writing, to make the trio quite formidable.
It would've been nice for Kate to have a scene with Black Mask after the Circe personality was gone, but there wasn't much time for it. Her scene with Sophie was more important for the character and the series. I did like the National City mention. And her self-appointed mission to find Bruce. I wonder if the same actor who was on this season as Bruce/Hush, will come back if the series ever revisits Kate and she finds Bruce?
It won't happen but it would be neat if Ryan's mom was Fish Mooney, and they got Jada Pinkett-Smith. I imagine that she has to be 'someone', or connected to someone, for this to be a mystery, though not Mooney. Looking at Talia, Shondra Kinsolving, or Jezebel Jet.
As for Dougray Scott leaving, he's a good actor and I don't think they had much for him to do, to sink his teeth into on the series. It might have been a better use of his skills if they had made him the season one or two villain instead of a largely static supporting character. I'm imagining that the door is open for him to come back if/when/whenever he wants. Hopefully it will be.
I thought the scenes with Ryan and Alice, together, and separate, were some of the strongest in the finale. I am glad there was something of a resolution to Kate's story, and we got the moment where Kate hands off the mantle to Ryan, even though she didn't need the endorsement to be Batwoman, which a good part of her story in this episode-and I'm guessing her inaugural season-was all about. I thought Ryan's speech before the parole board was her best moment in the episode. That didn't feel as soap box as I think this series can get. Before that, I liked Ryan's doubts and admission that she couldn't beat Kate. It was a nice dilemma she had to overcome.
I thought Rachel Skarsten gave the best acting performance this episode. I also liked the guy playing Black Mask, though I don't think he was given that much to do, and I wish his mask had red eyes like they sometimes do in the comic; also that the mask was even more stylized than it was. It didn't look as impressive to me when he was wearing it as it came across initially. I did like how Alice burned him with the acid and now the mask has melded to his face.
I thought Luke's transformation into Batwing was rushed. I'm not the biggest fan of the suit, or that his moment of heroism was immediately undercut by his jet pack going out and landing unceremoniously with Mary on top of him. Johnson delivered the 'justice' line well, though I don't think it's enough to tie a bow on what he's experienced at the hands of Tavaroff. Venomed Tavaroff looked too comical and his comeuppance was over too quickly. I thought Gotham's Bane was a better design. Perhaps it would be nice if Batwoman's designers looked more to that series which I thought did a nice job-from what I saw-with their designs, especially now that it appears that some bigger comics baddies are coming to town in Season 3.
It wouldn't have hurt either to show Batwing helping stop the gangs and rioters later on. Also didn't get why Ryan just didn't throw on a black suit and something to cover her face and go out to fight instead when the episode first started.
I do think that Ryan, Luke, and Mary have developed a nice working relationship, and there's potential there, with the right writing, to make the trio quite formidable.
It would've been nice for Kate to have a scene with Black Mask after the Circe personality was gone, but there wasn't much time for it. Her scene with Sophie was more important for the character and the series. I did like the National City mention. And her self-appointed mission to find Bruce. I wonder if the same actor who was on this season as Bruce/Hush, will come back if the series ever revisits Kate and she finds Bruce?
It won't happen but it would be neat if Ryan's mom was Fish Mooney, and they got Jada Pinkett-Smith. I imagine that she has to be 'someone', or connected to someone, for this to be a mystery, though not Mooney. Looking at Talia, Shondra Kinsolving, or Jezebel Jet.
As for Dougray Scott leaving, he's a good actor and I don't think they had much for him to do, to sink his teeth into on the series. It might have been a better use of his skills if they had made him the season one or two villain instead of a largely static supporting character. I'm imagining that the door is open for him to come back if/when/whenever he wants. Hopefully it will be.
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I did watch last night out of curiosity. This whole season is going to be remembered infamously for being one of the worst handlings of replacing a lead on a television series.
Reading comments from the producers this whole time since Ruby Rose departed, they never could fully commit to recast or replacement. So they decided to do both and neither character benefited. Plus all the characters around them are messed up in the process.
In theory Kate going to search for Bruce is a great idea. But highly dubious they will follow it up. Or if they do it will not be in any satisfying matter. That should be a whole subplot running throughout the next season. But they are already saying they are done with Kate!
Also I would be shocked if Wallis Day turns up as Kate to visit her “friend in National City” on their own show. Would be happy to be wrong but Supergirl only has 13 episodes. If there is no follow up that comment was totally pointless.
Also I would not expect too many old Batman villains to appear. New interview made it clear DC gave this show free reign to use their weapons alone for random newbies to claim. This show has tried to coast off its loose association with the Batman myths it’s whole run. This is the most ridiculous example. Signs they can not create their own ideas. I would rather see second rate Villains than random nobody using the Penguin’s umbrella.
Reading comments from the producers this whole time since Ruby Rose departed, they never could fully commit to recast or replacement. So they decided to do both and neither character benefited. Plus all the characters around them are messed up in the process.
In theory Kate going to search for Bruce is a great idea. But highly dubious they will follow it up. Or if they do it will not be in any satisfying matter. That should be a whole subplot running throughout the next season. But they are already saying they are done with Kate!
Also I would be shocked if Wallis Day turns up as Kate to visit her “friend in National City” on their own show. Would be happy to be wrong but Supergirl only has 13 episodes. If there is no follow up that comment was totally pointless.
Also I would not expect too many old Batman villains to appear. New interview made it clear DC gave this show free reign to use their weapons alone for random newbies to claim. This show has tried to coast off its loose association with the Batman myths it’s whole run. This is the most ridiculous example. Signs they can not create their own ideas. I would rather see second rate Villains than random nobody using the Penguin’s umbrella.
Not pointless. If they hadn't had her say that, it would've left a loose end. It's a way of acknowledging the Kate/Kara friendship, answering that question for the viewers in the absence of actually showing it.
Correction - I substitute the word pointless with not satisfying.
All it was just so perfunctory. Following this pattern we can expect next season for one of the cast to receive a text or email from Kate. Revealing she learned Bruce is alive and well. Neither of them will either return to Gotham again...
All it was just so perfunctory. Following this pattern we can expect next season for one of the cast to receive a text or email from Kate. Revealing she learned Bruce is alive and well. Neither of them will either return to Gotham again...
I was sure (mainly out of hope) that Wallis Day joining the cast was a permanent thing, but I was clearly wrong, and it once again puts a damper on my level of interest in the show.
Keep in mind that the shows have been unable to cross over casts and crews due to COVID restrictions. Apparently such restrictions were also the reason we didn't see many love scenes this season -- because Batwoman went into production before the other shows and the first half or so of the season was operating under strict rules that limited physical contact between cast members. This year has been a unique situation, so there's no reason to expect similar limitations to be in place next year.
(Another CW show, Charmed, was also made under those restrictions, but they handled it creatively by incorporating into their storyline, giving the main characters a "magic allergy" that prevented them from touching each other. In recent episodes, made under looser COVID guidelines, they've finally been able to overcome it.)
I saw that about Covid limiting love scenes on Batwoman.
I really, really, hope I am wrong. I really like Wallis Day as Kate Kane.
If Batwoman is not going to use her right now there are other places that could and should. If not Supergirl maybe the crossovers coming to The Flash next season. Hopeful but highly skeptical. They spent a lot of time to recast and setup this new Kate to never use her again.
I really, really, hope I am wrong. I really like Wallis Day as Kate Kane.
If Batwoman is not going to use her right now there are other places that could and should. If not Supergirl maybe the crossovers coming to The Flash next season. Hopeful but highly skeptical. They spent a lot of time to recast and setup this new Kate to never use her again.
I had forgotten that until you mentioned it but that was a decent moment and was nicely written to be just enough for the moment without overdoing it.
At least it wasn't done in the Whedon way. That was really hammered in, I would've preferred if Luke (the tech guy) had more a hand in building it personally.
Wasn't she created for the Gotham show, I don't think they'd go there if she has no other connections.
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Hopefully, if there's another season they can just move forward with Ryan and Co. without the baggage of addressing the elephant in the room anymore. Now they've intertwined Alice sufficiently into Ryan's storyline that they could justify continuing to keep Skarsten involved if they want.
Yes, Mooney is from the Gotham series, so I don't know how proprietary the character is to just that series, or if she is now part of the DC Batfamily of characters that any Bat series can use. And thinking of the last crossover where we were able to get cameos from Smallville, Batman '66, Titans, Stargirl, and there was an attempt, or hope, for Krypton, that I hope it's not outside the realm of possibilities that there could be some Gotham/Batwoman or Gotham/Arrowverse merging.
Good point about Luke not having more of a hand in creating his costume. Seems like if this had been his childhood dream that he might have been working on it himself, especially during the time after Bruce left and Kate hadn't come back to town and Gotham needed a hero.
I do think that the season finale did largely get beyond the elephant in the room. Kate is alive, she's got her own mission that logically keeps her off the series, until needed, and she has given up all claims to the suit/mantle, so that frees up Ryan and the series. And they've made Alice Ryan's personal nemesis with a story and a now a mystery that isn't Kate-dependent. Dougray Scott moving on also makes the series less about Kate, or the Alice-Kate relationship. Despite my not being too charitable about the Batwoman writing staff they've actually set up Ryan to stand more on her own and to fully own the series going forward.
Come to think of it, having Kate search for Bruce doesn't necessarily have to mean writing her out of the show. They could do an ongoing subplot of Kate's globetrotting search drawing her into new adventures, like how Supergirl and Legends both had their lead characters off on their own separate plotlines for the first half of the season, apart from the rest of the cast. Or like how Arrow cut away to its flashbacks on a weekly basis, only it's not the past, it's just a different character's journey in the present.
Do you know where I could find that interview about them not being allowed to use big DC/Batman villains? I would think with the Poison Ivy tease that they wouldn't be held back like that. With the Pattison Batman movies gearing up I can see WB/DC being stingier with loaning out the biggest baddies. Though I do think with the right writing it could be fun to see how different people handle some of the contents in that case. That said, Batman's rogues' bench is so deep they could bring in third or fourth string villains and they could still be formidable. I was just thinking that even if the Penguin is off limits, why should the Emperor Penguin/Blackgate be? Or if Scarecrow is a no-no, why should Cornelius Stirk be?
I do agree with you on the knots the writers twisted themselves in regarding recast and reboot. But I'm sure it wasn't easy for them to deal with Rose's leaving and having to adjust.
That was the central problem with Wilder as a character--instead of earning the Batwoman title, that so-called script had others telling her that she was BW. There's no believable journey or act of overcoming a series of obstacles to earn the title at all. Further, the fact that Dries had the season finale use others to tell Wilder she was Batwoman was more about trying to convince the audience that preferred Rose / did not like how she left the series / never cared for Leslie, which is not a good position for a series. The series is no more stable with the Wilder character as BW now than it was at the start of season two.
As I posted in a previous review, Alice has run out of plot; her rekindled romance with Ocean ended in death, she reunited and was recognized as family by Jacob and Kate, so all of her running plotlines have reached their end. The idea of knowing who Wilder's birth mother was screamed "we have to find a reason for Alice to remain on this series," and as a "hook" to Wilder, its weak, as the audience knows nothing about her birth mother, and do not care, as it was never used as a foundation for who she is. Alice is a character that should have vanished at the end of this season--perhaps pull up stakes and move to whatever country Ocean had picked for them. Since those closest to her are out of Gotham or dead, she is just there to continue to be what the showrunners adapted her to be--asurrogate Joker/Quinn.
..and it the series was not going to explore the effects such an event would have on Luke as a black male in America. It is clear the showrunners simply wanted to bandwagon on this sociopolitical crisis for "relevance points" but never cared about the subject at all, hence Luke being shot / cured by the Desert Rose / taunting the man who shot him at a bar that catered to law enforcement (which was astoundingly childish and unrealistic), then he's A-Ok, finds a Batsuit and dispenses "justice". As noted before, Luke's "arc" was bullshit, as he suffered no emotional or external social struggles as a victimized black man. He--unlike the real black audience watching this show---are not healed by magic plants, finding super-suits allowing some heartless moment of "justice" against Tavaroff. Again, this was Caroline Dries' middle finger to black men and their real world struggles. All that mattered was that she--and the rest of the talenltless Berlanti Productions gang can say they "tackled the big issues on race and policing" when its clear to viewers--black viewers in particular--that Batwoman's handling of the subject was empty, often offensive bullshit.
Oh, you might be able to mark that as the first point of the Luke State of Affairs going forward. Despite Luke being the only character with a true tie/legacy to Bruce Wayne/Batman in the current cast, do not be shocked if he never asserts this status and acts as Batwing when necessary. I would not raise an eyebrow in surprise if he has doubts, saying, "What do I know about being a superhero? I'm just a--" (nevermind the fact that Wilder knew nothing about being a superhero either, but...).
Because the episode was so Hell-bent on everyone telling her that she was BW, that Wilder was never going to wear anything else other than a BW suit (whenever that happens in season three).
I imagine Scott has his track shoes on, running as far away as possible from the Batwoman series.
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