They weren't even sure that the other ship existed at that point, and you think they should've preemptively declared defeat because of it?
Plot holes.
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They weren't even sure that the other ship existed at that point, and you think they should've preemptively declared defeat because of it?
What does that have to do with anything I said?
Which Colonel Worf suggested at the trial but was shot down and dismissed as "unprovable."
The one about Data's contractions is a nice example of how ambiguous these "plot hole" or "blooper" or "writer asleep at the wheel" things really can be.
Back in "Datalore", there was no plot hole or a blooper or a writing error. All we have there is a fan misconception, the false belief that Data can't use contractions. It's a false belief because not only is it not supported by anything in the episode, it is actually contradicted right there. But as said, the error is the audience's only.
Data never says "I can't use contractions" or words to that effect. Rather, Lore goads him with "Can't speak like peeoo-plee, can't speak like peeoo-plee!" - which allows Data to demonstrate maturity and, rather than starting to speak like people (which he obviously can do, in many languages including French and Hollywood Stereotype), to admit that this is what he is: "I do speak formally." That's what he chooses when given a choice.
The plot then has the juvenile Lore proceed with certain assumptions about Data and the heroes, all false (he apparently makes false assumptions about the Crystalline Entity, too!), and the equally juvenile Wes Crusher following suit, and culminates in Data saying "I'm fine". Not a contradiction of anything said or done in the episode, nor a blooper by Spiner, but a very deliberate, not-scripted-but-created-on-the-spot wink at the audience and at the expense of the heroes: it is at this point that Wes and certain segments of the audience are supposed to go "Oh, shit, we were betting a lot on our ability to tell the brothers apart by their apostrophes!".
No, Data never was incapable of inserting the apostrophe. In fact, he never was incapable of anything much, although he was in the habit of claiming he hadn't "mastered" this or that quite yet. And in "Future Imperfect", the writers still understand what "Datalore" had stated: only the fake and clueless not-Data is in the belief that the character he's impersonating couldn't use contractions, and Riker beats him to mental pulp with that after having recognized him for an impostor. But come "Offspring", the writers have forgotten, and insert a single line of the "writer asleep at the wheel" sort. Not a blooper nor a plot hole, tho.
Timo Saloniemi
Back in "Datalore", there was no plot hole or a blooper or a writing error. All we have there is a fan misconception, the false belief that Data can't use contractions. It's a false belief because not only is it not supported by anything in the episode, it is actually contradicted right there. But as said, the error is the audience's only.
Data never says "I can't use contractions" or words to that effect. Rather, Lore goads him with "Can't speak like peeoo-plee, can't speak like peeoo-plee!" - which allows Data to demonstrate maturity and, rather than starting to speak like people (which he obviously can do, in many languages including French and Hollywood Stereotype), to admit that this is what he is: "I do speak formally." That's what he chooses when given a choice.
The plot then has the juvenile Lore proceed with certain assumptions about Data and the heroes, all false (he apparently makes false assumptions about the Crystalline Entity, too!), and the equally juvenile Wes Crusher following suit, and culminates in Data saying "I'm fine". Not a contradiction of anything said or done in the episode, nor a blooper by Spiner, but a very deliberate, not-scripted-but-created-on-the-spot wink at the audience and at the expense of the heroes: it is at this point that Wes and certain segments of the audience are supposed to go "Oh, shit, we were betting a lot on our ability to tell the brothers apart by their apostrophes!".
No, Data never was incapable of inserting the apostrophe. In fact, he never was incapable of anything much, although he was in the habit of claiming he hadn't "mastered" this or that quite yet. And in "Future Imperfect", the writers still understand what "Datalore" had stated: only the fake and clueless not-Data is in the belief that the character he's impersonating couldn't use contractions, and Riker beats him to mental pulp with that after having recognized him for an impostor. But come "Offspring", the writers have forgotten, and insert a single line of the "writer asleep at the wheel" sort. Not a blooper nor a plot hole, tho.
Timo Saloniemi
You know in "Nenemsis" they show us that they can detect "positronic" signatures light-years away... It sure would have come in handy when Kivas Fajo kidnapped data...
Or Fajo's ship had shields that the pre-warp planet didn't have in Semsenis.
Plus, Fajo was taking many different rare collectibles that he wouldn't want people to know about. Lack of shielding would be unbelievable.
And finally, Nemesis takes place something like thirteen years after The Most Toys. Obviously there were upgrades to the sensors in the interim.
There's nothing saying Data had to have the same positronic signature blaring out into space like a beacon.
Maybe it can be turned on and off at will. Maybe Soong put it on the earliest model androids (preceeding Data and Lore) that weren't as smart so they could be easily located if they got lost. Maybe the Remans implanted a signal transmitter for their trap. Maybe Fajo dampened the signal.
There are any number of possible explanations.
If he were killed by a hologram there'd most likely be a record of safeties being messed with.
Ok, watching Vortex.
How the hell was Odo knocked unconscious by a falling rock?!
How the hell was Odo knocked unconscious by a falling rock?!
Indeed, in retrospect, that one sticks out like a sore thumb.
Plus Rene must have thought of that. Perhaps the producers and writers didn't care and thought the fans wouldn't notice.
In-universe, it makes perfect sense for Odo to fake it. After all, he has caught Croden with a dozen lies, but suddenly he seems to be telling the truth and claiming he's a decent guy after all. This has to be put to the test somehow!
That B-4 glows like a beacon is excusable, because none of the heroes ever go "Ah, positronic screams - it must be another you!". Instead, the very existence of the signals is a mystery, quite probably associated with Soong's antics, but not immediately identifiable as a Soongian android.
When the heroes do find the android, the mystery just deepens, so commenting on an anomalous signal there and then isn't to be expected. It's quickly obvious that B-4 wasn't put together quite right, so "leakage" as an explanation might occur to the heroes soon enough, and need no further comment.
Whether Soong actually had anything to do with B-4 is debatable. Romulans were planning on replacing Starfleet personnel with duplicates; perhaps they also chose to build a duplicate Data? B-4 might be the best they could come up with, and Shinzon would gain access to it when searching the vaults of Tal'Shiar either after his ascent to power, or during the process of his Spartacus revolt. Or even during his prior military service at that. Being a clone of J-L Picard might have made him the smartest jarhead in all of Remus, and well positioned to recognize opportunities like that...
But again, not really plot holes, since these things didn't affect the plots one iota. Conscious or not, Odo would have gotten out of that cave with Croden. And leaking or not, B-4 would have been viewed with suspicion yet taken aboard nevertheless.
Timo Saloniemi
That B-4 glows like a beacon is excusable, because none of the heroes ever go "Ah, positronic screams - it must be another you!". Instead, the very existence of the signals is a mystery, quite probably associated with Soong's antics, but not immediately identifiable as a Soongian android.
When the heroes do find the android, the mystery just deepens, so commenting on an anomalous signal there and then isn't to be expected. It's quickly obvious that B-4 wasn't put together quite right, so "leakage" as an explanation might occur to the heroes soon enough, and need no further comment.
Whether Soong actually had anything to do with B-4 is debatable. Romulans were planning on replacing Starfleet personnel with duplicates; perhaps they also chose to build a duplicate Data? B-4 might be the best they could come up with, and Shinzon would gain access to it when searching the vaults of Tal'Shiar either after his ascent to power, or during the process of his Spartacus revolt. Or even during his prior military service at that. Being a clone of J-L Picard might have made him the smartest jarhead in all of Remus, and well positioned to recognize opportunities like that...
But again, not really plot holes, since these things didn't affect the plots one iota. Conscious or not, Odo would have gotten out of that cave with Croden. And leaking or not, B-4 would have been viewed with suspicion yet taken aboard nevertheless.
Timo Saloniemi
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It's funny how people who used to be mine slaves and cannon fodder managed to build in secret a ship that's more advanced than anything produced by either Starfleet or even the Romulans!!!
Where did they get the resources for that(to say nothing about the knowledge)?
You will undoubtedly remember a key line from the film that I don't, but my understanding was that it wasn't a Reman ship as such but that it was something already in production that was taken over by Piclone after his assent.
May have been a Tal Shiar project - similar to the S31 Vengance in STID - that was upgraded with some more deadly weapons in the aftermath or something.
Shinzon conspired with elements of the Romulan military to overthrow the Romulan Senate. One presumes the military provided him with access to the assets he needed.
I remember the clone saying something to the effect that he built the Scimitar in secret not that he stole it from the Tal Shiar, although it too would have been a neat trick.
But then the ships they sent after him were easily defeated by Shinzon's. Can we also presume that the weapon was a hundred percent Remanian creation?
I was thinking more along the lines of the Tal Shiar having done the work on it, developing it in secret, and when he came to power it became his to use as he pleased.
I guess without anything more concrete it is a bit of a headcanon job to reconcile it
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