The Original Plan for Kes
- Thread starter GulBahana
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The problem is more the distance... Voyager had completed 60% of its journey by then, that's 40,000 light years. A long distance for Talaxians to be spread across.
Be that as it may, I also liked the ending. And unlike many, I liked Neelix.
Sorry, but I have to disagree here.
As I wrote before, I don't like bittersweet endings.
And I don't think that dumping Kes on a place she left without any doubts is fulfilling the character's journey in a satisfying way. It would be a step backwards and a sad waste.
The series might be over and there would be no movies but there are books and it would be nice to see Kes appear in in those, in adventures where she really can make a difference.
As for her powers, they were somewhat limited but useful. The extended powers she showed up in "Cold Fire" dissapeared when Suspiria and Tanis left the ship. As I see it, the limited powers she showed up in "Persistence Of Vision" and "Warlord" were good enough. More than that would have been ridiculous, more "Superwoman" than Kes.
But Voyager wasn't Chakotay's home either and not Torres's home or Seven's home. Deep Space Nine wasn't Quark's home but he stayed there, had a splendid career, made many good friends and made a fortune too.
Kes could make a contribution on Voyager and in the Alpha Quadrant. What should she do on Ocampa? Argue with Toscat or become a servant to Tanis and Suspiria?
I actually find it even more unbelievable that she should abandon her friends on Voyager and go back to a place that she found limited and boring.
Kes's feelings about the subject are clearly revealed in this discussion with The Doctor in the episode "Eye Of The Needle":
KES: I've been thinking. If we do get back to Federation space, I'd like to explore the possibility of going to Medical School.
EMH: If you continue to apply yourself as you have, by the time we get back you may already have the equivalent of a medical degree.
KES: Then you haven't heard?
EMH: Heard what?
KES: That we might be getting back soon.
Notice the emphasis on "we" and "getting back" !
"We" are Kes and the Voyager crew and "getting back" is Earth and the Alpha Quadrant, not Ocampa.
Well yeah I already wrote that we disagree.And that's cool.
I don't think you understand what I mean. I wouldn't have her click her heels and go "There's no place like Home" and end up on Ocampa. She wouldn't go there because it's her "home". She'd go there out of a sense of duty. To help other Ocampas like her.
And I think it makes worlds more sense than her sitting around the Alpha Quadrant. To me that would be a waste and a misinterpretation of her character.
I couldn't care less about the novels if I actively tried and do not think that Alpha Canon should plan their storylines or finales just so that the novelverse can use characters. Though tbh from what I've seen of the novels I'm surprised they didn't just have Kes pop up again for no other reason than have her hang around, considering how contrived the use of some characters is there.
In my eyes "Cold Fire" showed her potential, and the wish to master her powers was a part of her character. Also I wouldn't compare her to a "Superwoman", rather I'd compare her to Jean Grey, which I think is a xcharacter who has a lot in common with Kes.
Plus,again, written well it would not have been ridiculous.
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I disagree. I don't think she should stay on Earth. Even if she goes back I believe she should go back to Ocampa. And I think that saying she just argues with Suspiria is an artificial limitation because of a desire to see Kes on Earth and to stay with Voyager. I'm not saying Kes immediately runs back to Ocampa. I'm saying her going back there makes sense and shows growth rather than immaturity. The idea that a place is "boring" is childlike in its presentation in that they want to see the wider world and don't recognize what responsibilities might be needed, much like many kids regard school work as boring. Does that mean that school someone is less valuable or that they will not go back to school? Kes has the beautiful opportunity to show the Ocampa those limits are not their only definition and to teach them more. That's more interesting than coffee with Janeway.
And Chakotay is a terrible example because of home because one of his platitudes is "Home is wherever you are." So, yes, Voyager is his home, to be technically correct.
As always, this is my opinion. I have little vested interest in Kes remaining with Voyager so no doubt that informs this idea. To me, returning to one's home with knowledge is a beautiful thing.
Same. Writing episodes for the novels is basically like writing a film with anticipation of the sequel. Instead of telling a satisfying story now we are basically planning what other adventures might be. That makes for poor storytelling.
I still think that my ideas are much better because they will keep Kes in the Voyager storyline which is much better than to see her being dumped as some garbage on a planet which she left many years ago and never had any intention at all to go back to.
I don't find planning for continuing adventures "poor storytelling". On the contrary, it would show real skill to come up with continuing stories for all the main characters of Voyager.
Poor storytelling is to dump Kes as garbage on Ocampa instead of keeping her alive and active in the Star Trek Universe.
I don't find planning for continuing adventures "poor storytelling". On the contrary, it would show real skill to come up with continuing stories for all the main characters of Voyager.
Poor storytelling is to dump Kes as garbage on Ocampa instead of keeping her alive and active in the Star Trek Universe.
Okay now I can't even take what you say seriously anymore. Either you wilfully misinterpret what fireproof78 and I are saying or you are really not understanding us.
I stand by my opinion that her becoming teacher to her people would be the best sendoff to Kes, in my opinion (plus it happens in the last episode, so there wouldn't be any more "adventures" anyway).
But I don't even know anymore how to rephrase what my idea is and why i think it would fit Kes' characterisation so....have fun, I guess.
Yeah, that's a gross misunderstanding of what I am trying to suggest. Nowhere is this just a dumping her off or deleting from the Star Trek Universe when Ocampa is literally in the Star Trek universe. This all makes no sense.
All of it assumes much with zero evidence beyond the idea that Kes belongs on Voyager and that's it, as if the character was incapable of growing anywhere but Voyager.. I don't know to explain it further than this so I'll just leave it be.
Come on mate, the person has said more than once that it is a difference of vision and that its cool to both have your own vision.
Absolutely no need to slag off their idea as bluntly as "my idea is better" - you obviously have very strong feelings on the character but no one is obliged to agree with you
It's not my intention to insult anyone and I must apologize to Orphalesion and fireproof78 if I have insulted them in any way. I respect their opinions, even if I disagree with them.
But as a longtime fan of the character Kes, i just have to stand up for what I think when it comes to this.
I have always thought that kes was horrible treated by the writers and producers of Voyager and that makes it difficult for me to accept some of the scenarios presented here, as well as some scenarios presented in some later Voyager novels as well.
I would like to se a resurrection of the character in the Star Trek Universe and a more active role for her where her wit, determination, curiosity and will to learn and explore could be used better.
Given that I know how I feel about the idea of the characters of Nog or Odo being used now that Eisenberg and Auberjoinois have passed away...though of course this is a somewhat different scenario...how would you feel if they brought Kes back but portrayed by a different actress?
A very good question which deserves a honest answer.
In fact, I have thought about it many, many times in the recent years and there's a 99% chance that I wouldn't bother watch the episode, series or whatever. I mean, it would be devastating if they brought in some talent-less no-no with no resemblance at all to be Kes and people on the street where I live wouldn't like if all of a sudden TV:s and other furniture came raining from the sky, or more correctly from my window. I would be very hard to replace Jennifer Lien who did such an excellent job in portraying Kes.
However, if they brought in someone like Kirsten Dunst, Renee O'Connor or Laura Harris (or pehaps Nicole DeBoer in a blonde wig) who have good acting skills and at least some resemblance to "the real Kes", I might at least give it a try. However, I would still save some money for a new TV, just in case!
Fair enough!
I guess that begs the question of whether Jennifer Lien would even return to the role if given the opportunity, but I'm not in a position to ask her.
I am curious as to whether there will be any current footage of her in the retrospective being made given her travails.
I guess that begs the question of whether Jennifer Lien would even return to the role if given the opportunity, but I'm not in a position to ask her.
I am curious as to whether there will be any current footage of her in the retrospective being made given her travails.
However, I would still save some money for a new TV, just in case!
A plexiglass shield would probably cost less. Or just have nothing in the vicinity except small squishy cushions, the first time you watch.
Maybe I could rent a padded cell?A plexiglass shield would probably cost less. Or just have nothing in the vicinity except small squishy cushions, the first time you watch.
Back in the old days when I was at my worst, there was probably one waiting for me. Maybe it's still available!
I am not trying to say that Kes was treated well. On the contrary, I think she was a greatly missed opportunity utilizing her shorter life span to really explore a very alien point of view.
That said, to say that she would never return to Ocampa because it was "boring" is, in my opinion, short sighted. Now, is this me saying she doesn't go back to the Alpha Quadrant? The answer is no, so let's leave that aside. What I see with Kes is very simple-she goes, gathers intense amounts of knowledge, understands her powers in a greater way than Tanis or Suspira ever could and returns to teach, seeing value in being able to share knowledge with her people. To me that shows growth and capability and maturity in returning what was once considered "boring" and finding value in the experience and sharing of knowledge. And, if I may indulge in a little bit of fan service, could have Ocampa become a art of the Federation in the future in Discovery.
I just don't see how her returning to Ocampa to share that wit, that determination and curiosity with her people is some how lacking. But, that's me. I don't have the same long time passion as you do.
I've already mentioned some reason why I think that Kes would do more useful and interesting things in the Alpha Quadrant than going back to Ocampa.
But let us focus on the problem from a strictly entertaining and adventures point of view. After all, Star Trek is about entertaining adventures, exploring and such.
The main problem with your suggestion is that it would reduce Kes to a "has been" in the Star Trek Universe.
OK, Ocampa is a part of the Star Trek Universe but it's far away from the places where the action is, which is The Alpha Quadrant, the Delta Quadrant and parts of the Gamma Quadrant.
There's no chance in the world that any future novel writer or writer for Picard or some other series would locate any future books or episodes to the Ocampa area. No chance that the Enterprise all of a sudden should get a mission to go to Ocampa and sort out things.
Or that janeway should come up with a suggestions such as: "Let's take the Voyager and go to Ocampa and help Kes to educate the people there, maybe we can chase away possible Kazon remaining there or take Suspiria by the ear if she tries to take over the society. We can use the new Huxtaflux warp drive constructed by Doctor Drools which will make us come up in warp 9,99 speed and be there in a couple of days!"
No way that it would happen! And that would place Kes in the same cathegory as her cousin Lucy Janeway, the one who Troi slagged off totally in the TNG episode Man Of The People when Troi was under the influence of the evil Ambassado Alkar. Kes would become a relic, forgotten by everyone, except me and maybe a few others.
And why only Kes? I mean, what is Torres doing on Voyager? Shouldn't she join her mother on the Klingon Homeworld? And Tuvok? Isn't he too old to be a Starfleet Officer? Shouldn't he go home to Vulcan to study logic? And Ezri Dax? Shouldn't she go home to her dear, overbearing mother to continue the family business? Why is Kes the only one to be sidelined?
Imagine another scenario: Kes is restored back to normal by Q after The Gift, encounter a Maquis ship which also has been taken to the Gamma Quadrant by the Caretaker before he died. They manage to get back to Federation space via the Gamma Quadrant where Kes can continue to explore and learn, either as a member of the Voyager crew or a member of these former Maquis crew who have settled on a planet close to deep Space Nine or both. That would make it possible for kes to continue to be a part of the ongoing adventures in the Star Trek Universe.
That's a lot of strawmen in this argument and assumes a ton of negativity. Honestly, I'm just going to repeat of few points but it is clear to me that there is no way past this besides agree to disagree because the emotion has pushed so high as to be irrational and I'll not address every single "What if?" that is being presented. It's absurd.
As I noted in my post I said Kes would eventually go back to Ocampa. I see possibility there. I see growth there. I see potential and opening communication so that the Delta Quadrant isn't just the wasteland to the Federation but opportunity for exploration. But, I stand by my opinion, largely because there is a series coming out that is about exploring the Delta Quadrant. To me, it is a ridiculous assumption that writers will never so somewhere and therefor we should not make a decision regarding this character except to maintain status quo of keeping her on Voyager.
Sorry, I don't see it as Kes sidelined. I don't see her losing out. I see her taking experience, learning in the Alpha Quadrant and returning to Ocampa to teach. If that isn't growth and development and exploration then quite frankly I do not know what is.
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