Nothing is as good as the good old days. They are new. New frontiers, new ideas. That's what Trek is about.
The Original Plan for Kes
- Thread starter GulBahana
- Start date
I don't care about new or old: neither is automatically better. I care about good or bad, Overall: I love TOS, TNG, DS9, Lower Decks and Short Treks. I like Voyager, Enterprise and TAS well enough, despite serious issues. I have serious issues with Discovery and Picard, though some aspects of season 3 of Discovery and the Picard cast give me hope, and I will keep watching because Star Trek and ignore any one who tells me to just stop watching as an answer to any criticism I dare make.
I wish you luck.
Sorry about the late reply, a lot to take in.
You know, I have actually been following this site, and particularly the Kes debate, since 2012, and I can say that you have improved no end. I too would name both Kes and the real Jennifer Lien as inspiration for who I am now.
Certainly, the speech to Toscat made an impact on me, particularly the line "They can't speak telepathically." Now, I am autistic, I really do feel like the only human in a world full of telepaths a lot of the time. I also really identified with the holographic Doctor, who became another instant favorite. Indeed, when Kes befriended the doctor, it was like she had befriended me. By that time, I had been shunted around five primary schools, including a nearly all-male one where I had been thoroughly bullied. Before then, in the second school, a girl who had become my only friend had been removed, and I found it impossible to make new friends, even with those who wanted to be my friends. Kes really was like the schoolfriend I didn't have, which might explain my liking for her extreme youth!
Yes, I am a science fiction person, I'm more interested in holograms and aliens than humans, but Kes was something of the strange case. Like you, I came to like her character before learning of her concept. The show's creators, however, seemed to see her primarily as a concept. And she is not like Spock, whose character and concept merged seamlessly. Instead, it seems some of them expected a great character to come out of the concept by itself.
While some writers tried to build a good character out of this, others seemed most intrigued by what the concept could do for drama, jeopardy, even horror! The character was then written inconsistently, changing from 'attractive maturity' to immature as plot demanded. While some actors, like Leonard Nimoy and Robert Picardo, worked to build their own characters, Jennifer Lien was a former child actor who had never done such a complex role before. With good writing and a good director, she could be outstanding, but she wasn't so good at creative contributions. She might have been a little better as a film actor, though her movie career was ultimately quite short. As it is, she effectively ended up playing Kes as more than one character.
And the writers loved ramping up the jeopardy. When any aspects of the concept became apparent, it increasingly had to be dramatic, even disturbing. This meant that her departure, and any return appearance, had to ramp up the tension. Quite by accident, however, they had actually created a character who really appealed to stressed viewers who actually needed reassurance. Indeed, I think that type of character may be making a comeback lately. For instance, I see Discovery's Adira as a bit of a Kes type.
In The Orville, by contrast, the writers seemed to know why fans took to their departing character, giving her a sendoff which actually enhanced her character, and showed you how they missed her to. They did add a new character, but one who was actually less of a scene stealer than Alara was. Indeed, Alara's sendoff focused thoroughly on her character, showing how she rose to be occasion when her concept (superhuman strength) was taken away. I mean, a good character builds on their concept. A great character works without it.
And Kes had all the makings of a good character. Indeed, restraining the mental powers which came with her concept made room for her character. After all, nearly all superheroes have notable weaknesses. And Kes was great at showing strength in the context of vulnerability. But even the vulnerability, including the temptation, only really enhanced the character when she did not give in to it. And remained in character. No aspect of the concept was of interest if she was completely out of character. You should not reduce any character to strength alone or vulnerability alone.
Indeed, The Orville's Alara Kitan focus episodes all focused on an aspect other than her superstrength, a personal challenge for which the strength was not enough. Now, that is how you make a great character.
I don't know exactly what country you're in, or how they intend to bring the upcoming third season of The Orville there. In my country, it used to air on the local Fox channel, but that is being disbanded, and the show is moving to the Star channel on Disney Plus. Do you have Disney Plus with Star in your country?
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Not an affiliate, a pay TV channel owned by Fox Networks (now Disney). It shows mainly Fox programmes that don't have distribution deals with other channels in my country, and some non-Fox shows like NCIS, and not at the same time as American broadcast. It never shows Fox News!
It will be shut down at the end of next month, and most of the original content will move to Star on Disney+.
Many Fox shows have deals with other channels, like Sky. Unfortunately, they are still often delayed. 9-1-1, for instance, won't begin its fourth season on Sky Witness until this coming Monday. The wait has been driving me round the bend!
And then leave on a very poor note such that I don't want to revisit the show. That's how you decrease investment in a great character.
A poor note? Surely you liked her 'gift'?
Surely I did not.
Here's a thought... how "The Gift" should have ended...
Kes is on the verge of transforming into a being of pure energy.
KES: "My gift to you..."
POOMP! She sends Voyager flying off at about Warp 300. The ship goes flying between stars, through systems and super clusters, past red giants and blue giants and black holes... and it hits a rogue comet and disintegrates in a fiery ball.
KES: "Well, s***."
Kes is on the verge of transforming into a being of pure energy.
KES: "My gift to you..."
POOMP! She sends Voyager flying off at about Warp 300. The ship goes flying between stars, through systems and super clusters, past red giants and blue giants and black holes... and it hits a rogue comet and disintegrates in a fiery ball.
KES: "Well, s***."
You should've seen what I did with "When the Bough Breaks".
Honestly, considering her compassion was the core of her character, and that her people back on Ocampa were running out of life support, the only good ending I can imagine for her is that she develops her powers (which aaalso leads to her learning how to slow down her aging) and returning to Ocampa to rescue and teach her people.
My ideal final episode would have had Kes fully unlock her powers, send Voyager home and then go off to help the other Ocampa (maybe she could take a copy of the Doctor with her, due to their friendship and his medical knowledge becoming useful)
I see no reason why she should return to a place she left many years ago, especially not when her main interest was to explore space.
When she decided to join the Voyager crew, she realized that she wouldn't see her homeworld again, that's the sacrifice she had to made and she knew it.
She enjoyed being on Voyager, she found a new home and a "family" there and she could do what she wanted, learn and explore.
Going back to a place which either had remained the same boring place that she once left or being taken over by Tanis and Suspiria wouldn't have been a good choice for Kes.
I must also tell a story about a person I worked together with some years ago. It was an older guy who was from another town several kilometers away, a long journey with car or train.
This guy did often speak highly of his old hometown and told everyone that when he retired from work, he would move back to the town.
And so the day of retirement arrived and it didn't take long before he moved back to his old hometown.
I didn't see or hear from him in five years or so. I lnew that he had visited some people now and then but I didn't have the opportunity to meet him then.
But then one day a couple of months ago, all of a sudden I ran into him at the main square in the town I live. So I asked him if he was on a short visit to meet some of his old friends from work.
He was quiet for a few seconds, then he said: "No, I've actually moved back here".
His old hometown had changed a lot since he lived there and for some reasons he realized that he had had a better life where he was before, where he still had his old workmates and other friends.
I think that Kes would feel the same way if she had returned to Ocampa. She had a better life on Voyager.
Honestly, I would frame it a bit like how Stargate dealt with Abydos and a bit of ascension style, allowing Kes to become the leader to share the stars with her people.
Again, because compassion is the core of who Kes is. She wanted to explore her powers because they are her birthright as an Ocampa. And once she had achieved that, I believe that her compassionate nature would make her thoughts turn towards her people, especially all the young Ocampa and children who might be like she once were. And I believe she would want to help them and maybe even see it as her duty (Starfleet stresses the ideal of duty and that the strong should help the weak)
Yes she found a family on Voyager, and there would be heartfelt goodbyes, including a scene where she thanks Janeway and Tuvok especially for giving her a environment and stability that allowed her to develop her powers. And the Doctor would send a copy of himself along, because Kes was one of his first and closest allies in his quest to build an identity, and he'd now repay her by helping her in her quest to save and teach her people.
In addition it would finish the development of Kes as a somewhat child-like character and student to a mature one who now takes the mantle of teacher.
in my opinion that (her developing her powers and helping others) just fits her character and her journey better than her flitting about the Alpha Quadrant while her people and planet are dying.
The way I see Kes is that she'd choose to help them.
Edit: No, scartch that last part, it would take away from the bitter-sweet ending.
I will admit I haven't seen a lot of Stargate, but yes, Kes would return to them teach them how to unlock their powers and in a collective effort they'd restore their planet's ecosphere, and then start to build ships so that they can explore the stars.
I originally thought that up as what happened to Kes after "The Gift" where she'd go back to her planet and become a sort of "World Spirit" who watches over her people and teaches them. In that theory the "Kes" we saw in Fury was just her mortal remnant she had cast off during her ascension and which gained sapience through some sort of cosmic fluke.
I know that second idea is quite "Planetary Romance", but I quite enjoy the Planetary Romance sub-genre.
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I don't like bittersweet endings.
What I want is ongoing adventures for Kes, either as a crew member on Voyager or cooperating with the Voyager crew.
tanis and Suspiria can save the Ocampa planet. Kes is needed elsewhere.
And I don't want Kes to have superpowers. We already have Q who has superpowers and that's enough. The most interesting with Kes is her personality, her wit, curiosity, determination, compassion and will to learn and explore. Abilities which really personifies the spirit of Star Trek.
Well, I do like bittersweet endings. And overall I like endings that fulfil a character's journey in a satisfying way and put them into the next stage of their lives, rather than endings that merely keep up the status quo or where things happen because the author wants them to.
And as I said, I feel that Kes becoming teacher to her people fits both her personality and the character journey she had on the show, plus I think would be a good evolution of her relationship with Janeway.
Plus I just prefer it when main characters do things rather than have them being handled off-screen by somebody else.
And what would Kes' sitting around the Alpha Quadrant even accomplish? The series was over, the next show was a prequel and she was unlikely to make an appearance in the movies that followed.
Of course I like Kes' personality, and I feel the determination and compassion would make her want to help her people.
Plus, whether you like it or not, Kes' "super powers", and her determination to master have been established on screen,s he is a very powerful esper who can do all sorts of stuff, and that's part of her character. Plus they can be used in all sorts of ways to explore who Kes is inside, as happened in Warlord. Metahuman Powers of any kind, if used intelligently can be a very good tool for characterization, as it's not about the powers so much, but what the characters make of them.
Plus even if we were to talk about a Kes who has the same power-level as Q, it would allow the two characters to be used in wildly different ways, because of their differences in character and philosophy.
But that's just how I feel, it's great that you feel different, in the end we are both just two fans building castles in the sky about what could have happened to a fictional character we like, if she hadn't been written out of a series prematurely.
I don't care if the ending is bittersweet or not. To me, Kes remaining forever with Voyager is odd because Voyager is trying to get home. That's not her home, necessarily. And she has a massive discovery around her people, and their abilities and she keeps that to herself? I find that more than a little unbelievable.
As I said, I feel it would be wildly out of character for her. And making her the one who sends Voyager home before she bids farewell and goes to help her people would be a good way to tie the motivation of the Voyager crew at large (getting home) to her own motivation (to grow and explore and master the powers that are the birthright of her people)
I also don't quite know what she'd be doing in the Alpha Quadrant, due to their original mission the crew of Voyager is likely to go their separate ways and even if not...Kes is not a Starfleet officer, so her ability to serve any vessel would be limited.
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