How big SHOULD the Defiant be?

[Arpy]

So now the enemy only has to target/inderdict a single carrier.

A dozen small warp-capable escorts/destroyers stand a higher chance of some of them getting past a blockade.

Devil’s advocate:

Well, carriers are usually escorted by a bunch of other ships so that they’re harder to get at before unleashing their sky fleet and it’s game over.

The dozen escorts or destroyers might have a much shorter range and be good for little else when not part of a larger formation, unlike a classic Jack-of-all-trades Starfleet cruiser.

 

[matthunter]

Devil’s advocate:

Well, carriers are usually escorted by a bunch of other ships so that they’re harder to get at before unleashing their sky fleet and it’s game over.

The dozen escorts or destroyers might have a much shorter range and be good for little else when not part of a larger formation, unlike a classic Jack-of-all-trades Starfleet cruiser.

Yes, but the point of an aircraft carrier on Earth is to get smaller, short range fighters to a comabt zone. And yes, as you point out, it needs escorts.

Warp-capable ships can get to the target on their own power and are their own escorts. Range isn't much of an issue (top speed might be).

As you point out, a larger ship has a broader range of mission profiles. But that becomes limited too if space is used carrying smaller combat craft, as suggested.

 

[Qonundrum]

She's as big or little as the plot needs her to be.

Just like TOS, TNG, or any story that features going down to deck six from deck one (or from deck one to two, why not) but the turbolift floor indicator swooshes by/flashes/etc twenty times and in the same direction. Oops. (I think that was said in this thread already, if not another, but it's worth repeating for sure because, not just because it's fun, but because every time the number count exceeds the calculated destination, unless they're just passing all the decks and back for a cheap thrill...)

 

[Oddish]

Consider... let's say that it takes 100 million credits to build a warp capable starship, but only 20 million credits to build an impulse only "fighter" craft with comparable firepower. You have 10 billion credits available.

Do you spend 8 billion credits to build 400 of the little ships, and the other 2 billion to provide carrier/repair craft for them. You have 400 starships worth of firepower.

Or spend 9.5 billion credits to build 95 starships, and the other 500 million on support craft (repair ships). You have more flexibility, but less than a quarter of the firepower.

 

[Mytran]

FWIW, I've always been fond of the VERY small Defiant

 

[Timo]

...And they still managed to fit a shuttle aboard!

Although I suspect the original Bajoran/Maquis/Mirror/whatever raider was supposed to be smaller still.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Yes, but the point of an aircraft carrier on Earth is to get smaller, short range fighters to a comabt zone.

Smaller, faster, short-range fighters.

Key word is faster.

Whereas the only information we have on the sublight speed of shuttles (and likely fighters) suggests that they are either 1/10 the speed or 1/10 the acceleration of a typical starship.

Either way, a significant hit to the effectiveness of fighters vs starships.

 

[Oddish]

If ship to ship combat typically occured at warp speed, that would be true. At impulse speed, a shuttle probably maneuvers better, evades better, and is harder to detect.

 

[Arpy]

Warp is used in combat though. The Picard Maneuver for example. Plus warp ships can jump out of [phaser] firing range and back. And regardless what speeds battles usually take place in, they can at any speed. Carriers run the risk of being attacked at warp or forcing response to attack to be at warp, where their fighter fleets are useless.

 

[Oddish]

Warp is used in combat though. The Picard Maneuver for example. Plus warp ships can jump out of [phaser] firing range and back. And regardless what speeds battles usually take place in, they can at any speed. Carriers run the risk of being attacked at warp or forcing response to attack to be at warp, where their fighter fleets are useless.

Hence the need for escort ships. Note that despite the unimaginable lethality of an aircraft carrier and its airborne cargo, the Navy still builds destroyers, submarines, and other ships. Sublight fighter craft would be a force multiplier, but not a full replacement for warp ships.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

If ship to ship combat typically occured at warp speed, that would be true. At impulse speed, a shuttle probably maneuvers better, evades better, and is harder to detect.

Given that coffin-sized escape pods can be easily detected, I disagree on the last point.

I would suggest that maneuvering and evasion is less important than the ability to close with your target and keep up with them. Which shuttles at least don't seem to be able to do at impulse, and can only do for certain models at warp.

 

[Oddish]

Given that coffin-sized escape pods can be easily detected, I disagree on the last point.

An escape pod would be insanely useless if it wasn't easily detectable. That's why they probably have "come help me" beacons built into them.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

An escape pod would be insanely useless if it wasn't easily detectable. That's why they probably have "come help me" beacons built into them.

Perhaps.

In which I'd ask do you think at a rowing boat could outmaneuver, evade and (with depth charges or torpedoes) take out a modern warship?

Because that's about the speed and size differential that known hard data gives us for shuttlecraft vs starships in STL combat.

I have my doubts.

 

[Oddish]

Let's agree to disagree, then.

 

[Vger23]

Big. Maybe even bigger.

 

[matthunter]

Perhaps.

In which I'd ask do you think at a rowing boat could outmaneuver, evade and (with depth charges or torpedoes) take out a modern warship?

Because that's about the speed and size differential that known hard data gives us for shuttlecraft vs starships in STL combat.

I have my doubts.

Did you choose rowing boat because you already knew about the Gulf War II era US wargames exercise where small motor boats outmanoeuvred and took out a US warship?

 

[Oddish]

Did you choose rowing boat because you already knew about the Gulf War II era US wargames exercise where small motor boats outmanoeuvred and took out a US warship?

You give those little boats enough firepower, and tell them the right place to aim it, and anything can happen.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Did you choose rowing boat because you already knew about the Gulf War II era US wargames exercise where small motor boats outmanoeuvred and took out a US warship?

No, that's actually moderately interesting, and does somewhat support the use of larger platforms like the runabout or the Maquis heavy raider (Chakotay's ship from Caretaker).

I chose rowing boats because they are significantly slower than warships (typically 3-7 knots). Motorboats on the other hand, can and often do over short distances outperform warships in terms of speed and maneuverability (for example a RHIB can cruise at 32 knots and sprint at up 45 knots, and it's not even the fastest motorboat design) and so the former is a better model for small shuttles and fighters up to the Type-6 shuttle in size (which is canonically either 10x slower or 10x slower to accelerate than the stated norms for starships)

All of which would have obvious if you'd bothered to read my last couple of responses.

 

[kkt]

Navy tactics tend to go in circles. During World War I, some countries that were weak naval powers discovered they could mount torpedoes on motorboats that were so quick and maneuverable that the strong naval powers' battleships couldn't get their guns to bear before the torpedos were launched. They were called torpedo boats. So the great naval powers responded by building small ships with just 100 or so crew and smaller weapons that could be aimed and fired faster. So they were called torpedo boat destroyers. They were send out to escort capital ships as the outer layer of defense, and then there were so useful they got used for lots of little jobs. The torpedo boat destroyers got bigger, to provide more different kinds of weapons on board, larger crews, and more comfortable accommodations so they could stay at sea longer. Then the larger destroyers became vulnerable to motorboat attacks by weak naval powers, such as during the Iran-Iraq War and Gulf War, and the great naval powers responded with small maneuverable launches off the capital ships and destroyers, and the cycle began again.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Navy tactics tend to go in circles. During World War I, some countries that were weak naval powers discovered they could mount torpedoes on motorboats that were so quick and maneuverable that the strong naval powers' battleships couldn't get their guns to bear before the torpedos were launched. They were called torpedo boats.

Yeah, the GWII-era motorboats that @matthunter mentioned are essentially a modern counterpart. In Starfleet terms it would a runabout.

TBDs averaged 20-30kts which was competitive with the battleships they were intended to target (which typically steamed at 16-18 kts).