What else then?
Hey, I never noticed that before....
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
What else then?
Having higher rank doesn't automatically mean you get to give orders: the lower ranking people have to be in your specific chain of command. For instance, Doctors aren't in the chain of command and Bones could not order Sulu what course to set despite his rank. Kirk, Spock, and Scotty are all clearly in the top chain of command. But I bet Scotty can't order the bridge crew around unless the conn has been turned over to him. Likewise, a Lt. Commander in sciences can't give orders to engineering redshirts of lower rank.
I don't disagree with that. But you still owe someone proper respect according to their rank, IOW if someone with a superior rank asks something of you'd better have a good reason to say "No".
Plus if you're not currently carrying someone's order, the person with a superior rank can still order you around. Bashir for example (to give a Star Trek example) could give O'Brien orders even though O'Brien doesn't normally answer to Bashir. And Bones could order Sulu if there was a medical situation and no superior officer around. Bones could say Sulu set a course to planet of hats because I need a new medical hat or whatever. In fact, Bones is the only one who can give orders to everyone on the ship including the Captain without being his superior officer.
Respect is different than following orders. Showing deference to rank is not the same as obeying orders. If someone is not in your chain of command they can't give you orders.
And Bones could not do what you suggest. He had authority limited to the medical domain, such as relieving people of duty on medical grounds and ordering them submit to examinations and tests subject to regulations, but that's it. He can direct his medical staff but he cannot order course changes or tell Scotty to mix matter and antimatter cold.
And Bones could not do what you suggest. He had authority limited to the medical domain, such as relieving people of duty on medical grounds and ordering them submit to examinations and tests subject to regulations, but that's it. He can direct his medical staff but he cannot order course changes or tell Scotty to mix matter and antimatter cold.
I don't think even Kirk would do that. He just tells Scotty that he wants warp 8 or whatever and lets Scotty do his job as he sees fit.
And a demotion of fingers.Occasionally, redshirts who activate the Transporter gets a momentary promotion to Lt. Commander.
Well, the USN definition is "the officers and petty officers through which command is exercised, from superior to subordinate."
So what does that mean exactly?
Typically, a ship is organized into departments and, if the crew is large enough, departments are further divided into divisions. Divisions can be further divided into teams or shops if necessary.
This WWII battleship organizational chart illustrates the idea nicely:
Each department and division would have an officer assigned to command that department or division. Departments, depending on size, are typically commanded by officers in the O-3 to O-5 range (Lt. to Cmdr.)
Divisions are typically O-1 to O-3 (Ens. to Lt.)
(Referring to the diagram) Everyone belongs to a chain of command but the chain of command varies per the individual and not everyone is in each others' chain of command. For example, the chain of command for these two division officers is different:
Chain of command for the E-Div officer is CO > XO > Engineering Dept Officer > E-Div Officer > E-Div crew members. This is the path that orders are disseminated to the lowest member.
Chain of command for the FC-Div officer is CO > XO > Gunnery Dept Officer > FC-Div Officer > FC-Div crew members. This is the path that orders are disseminated to the lowest member.
(It's worth noting that watchstanding has a parallel chain of command.)
And except in extraordinary circumstances, giving orders outside the chain of command is a big no-no, because the officer doing so would be both undermining and usurping someone else's authority.
Well, the USN definition is "the officers and petty officers through which command is exercised, from superior to subordinate."
So what does that mean exactly?
Typically, a ship is organized into departments and, if the crew is large enough, departments are further divided into divisions. Divisions can be further divided into teams or shops if necessary.
This WWII battleship organizational chart illustrates the idea nicely:
Each department and division would have an officer assigned to command that department or division. Departments, depending on size, are typically commanded by officers in the O-3 to O-5 range (Lt. to Cmdr.)
Divisions are typically O-1 to O-3 (Ens. to Lt.)
(Referring to the diagram) Everyone belongs to a chain of command but the chain of command varies per the individual and not everyone is in each others' chain of command. For example, the chain of command for these two division officers is different:
Chain of command for the E-Div officer is CO > XO > Engineering Dept Officer > E-Div Officer > E-Div crew members. This is the path that orders are disseminated to the lowest member.
Chain of command for the FC-Div officer is CO > XO > Gunnery Dept Officer > FC-Div Officer > FC-Div crew members. This is the path that orders are disseminated to the lowest member.
(It's worth noting that watchstanding has a parallel chain of command.)
And except in extraordinary circumstances, giving orders outside the chain of command is a big no-no, because the officer doing so would be both undermining and usurping someone else's authority.
Deanna was not a bridge officer, yet she took command of the bridge over Ro who IS a bridge officer simply because she had a higher rank and was... a psychologist!!
So that simple example seems to contradict most of the objections that I read so far.
It's a TV show driven by drama. Troi is a lead character. Ro is guest star. That's all you need to know.
Well, the USN definition is "the officers and petty officers through which command is exercised, from superior to subordinate."
So what does that mean exactly?
Typically, a ship is organized into departments and, if the crew is large enough, departments are further divided into divisions. Divisions can be further divided into teams or shops if necessary.
This WWII battleship organizational chart illustrates the idea nicely:
Each department and division would have an officer assigned to command that department or division. Departments, depending on size, are typically commanded by officers in the O-3 to O-5 range (Lt. to Cmdr.)
Divisions are typically O-1 to O-3 (Ens. to Lt.)
(Referring to the diagram) Everyone belongs to a chain of command but the chain of command varies per the individual and not everyone is in each others' chain of command. For example, the chain of command for these two division officers is different:
Chain of command for the E-Div officer is CO > XO > Engineering Dept Officer > E-Div Officer > E-Div crew members. This is the path that orders are disseminated to the lowest member.
Chain of command for the FC-Div officer is CO > XO > Gunnery Dept Officer > FC-Div Officer > FC-Div crew members. This is the path that orders are disseminated to the lowest member.
(It's worth noting that watchstanding has a parallel chain of command.)
And except in extraordinary circumstances, giving orders outside the chain of command is a big no-no, because the officer doing so would be both undermining and usurping someone else's authority.
Right on! I'm actually not sure what we're debating here exactly, but to return to Tormolen, watches (as you noted) and the overall chain of command of the vessel would also be different. And the crew of an Iowa-class USN WWII BB would be something like four or five times the size of the Enterprise, so there would be fewer departments and divisions. (As an aside, I always thought the crew complement of Kirk's Enterprise was a little small in some contexts, while just right in others.) THIS is how Poor Joe's line could - if stretched - make sense. IF Sulu wasn't intended to be third or fourth in command of the overall vessel at the time The Naked Time was written, and IF the Enterprise had an organisation chart such that helm/navigation was separate from the science department to which Joe belonged, THEN Joe would be correct that Sulu didn't "rank" him despite being one grade higher. The problem is that I think Sulu was in the overall chain of command of the vessel at this point. The line would have worked better if Joe had said it to Riley; nice kid, but I don't think anyone thought that semi-doofus was actually qualified to make overall command decisions for a Federation starship.
By the way, this discussion also shows why having Leslie in the captain's chair in The Alternative Factor while there was an LCDR sitting at navigation wasn't really a problem. The navigation guy - just like Lang in Arena, or Giotto in The Devil in the Dark (ignore the Spocklike incorrect braid per the dialogue for purposes of this discussion), or the African-American goldgreenshirt extra shown in The Enterprise Incident in a briefing, or Leonard McCoy, M.D. - wasn't part of the overall chain of command of the Enterprise, regardless of holding a higher rank. The Star Trek franchise writers often got this wrong (TNG's "Disaster," with Ro and O'Brien preposterously deferring critical bridge command decisions in a life-or-death crisis to Troi) but sometimes got it right (Scotty being a "captain of engineering" in his later years, when he seemed to have lost interest in command - sadly, since he had quite an aptitude for it).
I think Joe's line has always bugged me because I feel like if they were going to have him say that in one of his (sniff) last breaths, they should have thought through the implications. But it was early.
Don’t confuse drama generated for entertainment interest with how things actually work.
^^ Troi never "took command", mind you. O'Brien tried to shove command over to her when it began to look like Ro would have it otherwise. But Troi balked, and did nothing particularly commanding.
It's just that O'Brien kept calling both the ladies "Sir" while selectively listening to their opinions and choosing which ones to interpret as orders. Meanwhile, the two officers argued and debated, and occasionally yielded to the arguments of the other. There simply was a total breakdown of the chain of command there, with the death of Lt Monroe, and the three sorted it out regardless: Ro by ignoring protocol, Troi by faking it through a good command of psychology, and O'Brien by playing the two against each other whenever things were headed for an unfortunate resolution one way or the other.
Had even one of these three been a "by the book" employee of Starfleet, chain of command might have applied and Ro would have been in charge, resulting in the deaths of everybody. But all three were players instead, and the day was carried.
Timo Saloniemi
It's just that O'Brien kept calling both the ladies "Sir" while selectively listening to their opinions and choosing which ones to interpret as orders. Meanwhile, the two officers argued and debated, and occasionally yielded to the arguments of the other. There simply was a total breakdown of the chain of command there, with the death of Lt Monroe, and the three sorted it out regardless: Ro by ignoring protocol, Troi by faking it through a good command of psychology, and O'Brien by playing the two against each other whenever things were headed for an unfortunate resolution one way or the other.
Had even one of these three been a "by the book" employee of Starfleet, chain of command might have applied and Ro would have been in charge, resulting in the deaths of everybody. But all three were players instead, and the day was carried.
Timo Saloniemi
The question is, are we talking reality or Star Trek, because the arguments put forth in each case are not the same.
Good or bad, she was in charge of the bridge at that time and if it wasn't legitimate Ro would know about it and since she disagreed with her decision she wouldn't have gone along with it if it wasn't true.
Both, because. that's how we roll.
Well TNG has proved that an MD and a counselor can both be in charge of the bridge given the right circumstances. So I made my case.
What's funny is that we saw Deanna assume the helm or other stations on the bridge at times* but Beverly is only seen in command of the bridge.
*Which makes you wonder, on a ship this big, can't they find someone else better suited for the job????
TV. McFadden and Sirtis got paid good money to be on the set acting.
When someone better is in the opening credits, they will. Bev and Deanna are qualified "bridge officers". Though that might have came after someone pointed out they shouldn't be in command.
Beverly and Deanna, one flew the Enterprise into the ground and the other into a sun!
But in the end, Ro disagreed anyway. Troi giving her "orders" and calling her "Ensign" did not really amount to anything: it was merely a case of two people having an argument and one or the other then triumphing - Ro winning at least as many rounds as Troi (who really was just a mouthpiece for O'Brien most of the time).
It never came to "legitimate": Ro wondered who the duty officer was, and O'Brien stated that Troi held the highest rank - after which he himself started giving orders, camouflaged as "recommendations", with Troi meekly obeying. Ro jumped in which her own "recommendations", and Troi obeyed her, too. Nobody ever actually acknowledged any command structure, and everybody danced around the fact that there was none till the very end, because absence of said was to the benefit of everybody and the ship.
Timo Saloniemi
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