Measure of a Man: The solution.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Hobson was too easily swayed by Data's outburst.

I mean, Hobson of course knew that Data was an android, incapable of emotion. So he should have noticed right away that Data's "dressing down" of him, must have been fake...

 

[DonIago]

^That's actually brought up in one of the novels set between INS and NEM. IIRC Data's asked how he could have had that outburst without having emotions, and he responds that he'd seen that Picard/Riker/other authority figures tended to get more expedient results when they acted in a similar manner, so he emulated them.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Hobson was too easily swayed by Data's outburst.

I mean, Hobson of course knew that Data was an android, incapable of emotion. So he should have noticed right away that Data's "dressing down" of him, must have been fake...

Hobson instinctively read Data like he would a human being. It's possible that he later reflected on the incident and realized that it was fake but by then it would have been too late to do anything about it.

 

[Mojochi]

I think it's probably standard for most captains to understand (As many other leaders do) that the appearance of having command is a major factor in having command. All of them play it up from time to time, I'm sure.

Besides, while the outburst "performance" directed at Hobson was surely inauthentic, given Data's nature, the threat of being relieved was almost certainly not imho, & I imagine that had to carry some weight. I mean if you truly believed he doesn't care about people, how much do you think he cares about you & your career? I'd be more intimidated by a threat like that from Data than I'd be of one from Worf, feigned indignation or not. Saying it emphatically just drives home the point more

In fact, of all the artistic endeavors which Data' pursues, like painting, music & poetry etc... I think the only one I ever thought had any use for an individual bereft of an ability to truly appreciate it, was his acting in Shakespeare. That has a major practical application for a guy in his circumstance. Having the ability to act like someone is suppose to act has tangible real world use for him

 

[Swedish Borg]

I don't think Data is capable of any artistic creation. It seems all he can do is mix the styles of different artists, Like when he plays the Violin forty percent like Yehudi Menuhin and sixty percent like Itzhak Perlman...

That's not art, that's... randomness...

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don't think Data is capable of any artistic creation. It seems all he can do is mix the styles of different artists, Like when he plays the Violin forty percent like Yehudi Menuhin and sixty percent like Itzhak Perlman...

That's not art, that's... randomness...

Isn't that what humans do except for injection of their emotion and experience?

 

[Swedish Borg]

Isn't that what humans do except for injection of their emotion and experience?

Not really, humans develop a style of their own according to their personality. Data is incapable of that, he has the personality of a roulette.

 

[JesterFace]

Not really, humans develop a style of their own according to their personality. Data is incapable of that, he has the personality of a roulette.

When I play the guitar who knows what might come out of it if I try to compose some music. Personality or not it's some kind of roulette? Data only works differently, he has some programming. Picard said something like this in 'The Measure of a Man', "aren't humans machines too that just work in a different way?". There is some kind of "programming" in all of us.

 

[Swedish Borg]

When I play the guitar who knows what might come out of it if I try to compose some music. Personality or not it's some kind of roulette? Data only works differently, he has some programming. Picard said something like this in 'The Measure of a Man', "aren't humans machines too that just work in a different way?". There is some kind of "programming" in all of us.

They don't have a device to measure self-awareness and neither did Soong. So we're supposed to believe that he created a self-awaere being without the slightest idea of what it was?

It would be like trying to create a car with no idea of how an internal combustion engine works or trying to make a computer without knowing the theory of semiconductors.

The chances of Data being a self-aware being are about the same as for your dog to sing an aria from la Boheme!!!


If there is one thing that we can bet on about self-awarenes it is that it won't be achieved by accident.

 

[JesterFace]

They don't have a device to measure self-awareness and neither did Soong.

Can self-awareness be measured from any of us?

The chances of Data being a self-aware being are about the same as for your dog to sing an aria from la Boheme!!!

There would be some differences between a dog and Data, on at least some level Data knows what it means to be self-aware, a dog most likely doesn't. Data knows it because he can describe it.

If there is one thing that we can bet on about self-awarenes it is that it won't be achieved by accident.

What if life on Earth is an accident? It just happened. By the number of stars and galaxies out there something might happen when there are so many building blocks.

It would be like trying to create a car with no idea of how an internal combustion engine works

That's an electric car.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Can self-awareness be measured from any of us?

You're missing the point. You can't create something that you can't measure or more to the point that you can't prove exists.

Hey I made you a <thing>, I can't prove it, you can't see it and I don't know how it works but believe me I made one!!! How does that sound?

There would be some differences between a dog and Data, on at least some level Data knows what it means to be self-aware, a dog most likely doesn't. Data knows it because he can describe it.

A dog is superior to Data and closer to us. A dog understands emotions and feels them, Data does neither.
Data is a walking talking encyclopedia. Just look how he talks about things, "accessing.. " what human being says "accessing.." when thinking about something?
A program can describe things but a dog is much more alive than any program will ever be.

What if life on Earth is an accident? It just happened. By the nubmer of stars and galaxies out there something might happen when there are so many building blocks.

Self-awareness is an accident that took billions of years and billions of billions of hit and miss. If we made a plane the way nature made a bird it would take us ten millions of years to do so.

That's an electric car.

Yeah, missing the point again...

 

[JesterFace]

A dog is superior to Data and closer to us. A dog understands emotions and feels them, Data does neither.

What is the current understanding these days, can animals have emotions? Do they have them? Emotions or not that doesn't make something self-aware or not. Does being close to us prove something about self-awareness?

Data is a walking talking encyclopedia. Just look how he talks about things, "accessing.. " what human being says "accessing.." when thinking about something?

Some people mumble something when thinking very hard.

Yeah, missing the point again...

It's kind of annoying when you're told that you're missing the point and then you're not told what is the point missed....

 

[Swedish Borg]

What is the current understanding these days, can animals have emotions? Do they have them? Emotions or not that doesn't make something self-aware or not. Does being close to us prove something about self-awareness?

You never had a dog, did you? Dogs can be happy, sad, angry, afraid, aggressive, submissive..plus other things and they can read these emotions in their owners. Anyone who's had a dog knows that.

Some people mumble something when thinking very hard.

Whoever says "accessing.." when thinking about something????

It's kind of annoying when you're told that you're missing the point and then you're not told what is the point missed....

Your response was a non sequitur.

 

[JesterFace]

You never had a dog, did you? Dogs can be happy, sad, angry, afraid, aggressive, submissive..plus other things and they can read these emotions in their owners. Anyone who's had a dog knows that.

Never needed one.

Whoever says "accessing.." when thinking about something????

Not very many but the point wasn't what word they use, people just might think out loud.

Your response was a non sequitur.

This discussion might be that aswell.

 

[Mojochi]

If there is one thing that we can bet on about self-awarenes it is that it won't be achieved by accident.

Well, that is just about the very thing I personally think might've happened at least once already. So who's to say?

I don't think Data is capable of any artistic creation. It seems all he can do is mix the styles of different artists, Like when he plays the Violin forty percent like Yehudi Menuhin and sixty percent like Itzhak Perlman...

That's not art, that's... randomness...

If we accept as part of TNG's narrative that Data is a sapient being, then it's almost impossible that he'd NOT be capable of some level of creative cognition, which is the root of all art.

 

[DonIago]

It could probably be argued that anytime a person says "Er..." or "Ummm..." or such, or simply pauses before responding to a question that they're "Accessing..." Data seems to figure this out over time as well, as IIRC the incidences of him saying "Accessing..." drop over time.

 

[dupersuper]

A dog is superior to Data and closer to us.

Ranking life forms worth at all, let alone by how close they are to us, seems very un-Star Trek.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Ranking life forms worth at all, let alone by how close they are to us, seems very un-Star Trek.

Data is not a life form.

 

[dupersuper]

Data is not a life form.

Them's fightin' words...

 

[DonIago]

It's hard for me to belive that Starfleet would officially agree that Data was not a life form after a hearing that declared he had the right to self-determination and to refuse the procedure to dismantle him.

What's more interesting but wasn't apparent here is that Data's hearing evidently applied only to him, not to any other Soong-type androids. Starfleet threatens to take Lal away from him regardless of her wishes, and in an act of potential hypocrisy, Data seemingly takes it upon himself to dismantle Lore. It might have been an interesting reversal of this episode if there was a hearing to determine whether Data had committed an illegal act with regards to Lore. Would Data argue that he had the right to exist but Lore did not, perhaps because Lore is "defective"? Is Data Lore's "next of kin", euthanizing the terminally-ill brother who's so ill he doesn't realize how ill he is?

 

[Swedish Borg]

It's hard for me to belive that Starfleet would officially agree that Data was not a life form after a hearing that declared he had the right to self-determination and to refuse the procedure to dismantle him.

What's more interesting but wasn't apparent here is that Data's hearing evidently applied only to him, not to any other Soong-type androids. Starfleet threatens to take Lal away from him regardless of her wishes, and in an act of potential hypocrisy, Data seemingly takes it upon himself to dismantle Lore. It might have been an interesting reversal of this episode if there was a hearing to determine whether Data had committed an illegal act with regards to Lore. Would Data argue that he had the right to exist but Lore did not, perhaps because Lore is "defective"? Is Data Lore's "next of kin", euthanizing the terminally-ill brother who's so ill he doesn't realize how ill he is?

Well, the thing is that even if you dismantle Lore, as long as you can still put him back together, you haven't committed murder yet. Murder applies once you've destroyed a component that can't be duplicated. But only someone really stupid would do that since Lore could be used as an organ bank for Data in case part of him was damaged beyond repair.

 

[DonIago]

Does that mean that you feel Data should have been required to submit to the procedure, at least up to a point?

 

[Markonian]

Well, the thing is that even if you dismantle Lore, as long as you can still put him back together, you haven't committed murder yet. Murder applies once you've destroyed a component that can't be duplicated. But only someone really stupid would do that since Lore could be used as an organ bank for Data in case part of him was damaged beyond repair.

They should've replaced Lore's matrix with Data's matrix. Give B-4 the option to just be, and let Data return.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Does that mean that you feel Data should have been required to submit to the procedure, at least up to a point?

Personally, I don't think that you can just create a self-aware being (I don't say lifeform because that doesn't mean anything. What's a lifeform? It depends on how you define it.) like that. You can only do it if you know what you're doing and that starts with a way to measure self-awareness. Otherwise, it's like throwing a dart in a dark hoping that it'll hit the bullseye.

And if Data's self-awareness could be measured, a trial would be pointless.

I don't think Maddox should have been allowed to work on Data mainly because he was a prick who didn't know what he was doing. He would have taken Data apart caused some irreparable damage, end of story.