Measure of a Man: The solution.

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Trekker4747, Mar 25, 2021.

  1. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Hobson was too easily swayed by Data's outburst.

    I mean, Hobson of course knew that Data was an android, incapable of emotion. So he should have noticed right away that Data's "dressing down" of him, must have been fake...
     
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^That's actually brought up in one of the novels set between INS and NEM. IIRC Data's asked how he could have had that outburst without having emotions, and he responds that he'd seen that Picard/Riker/other authority figures tended to get more expedient results when they acted in a similar manner, so he emulated them.
     
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  3. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    Hobson instinctively read Data like he would a human being. It's possible that he later reflected on the incident and realized that it was fake but by then it would have been too late to do anything about it.
     
  4. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think it's probably standard for most captains to understand (As many other leaders do) that the appearance of having command is a major factor in having command. All of them play it up from time to time, I'm sure.

    Besides, while the outburst "performance" directed at Hobson was surely inauthentic, given Data's nature, the threat of being relieved was almost certainly not imho, & I imagine that had to carry some weight. I mean if you truly believed he doesn't care about people, how much do you think he cares about you & your career? I'd be more intimidated by a threat like that from Data than I'd be of one from Worf, feigned indignation or not. Saying it emphatically just drives home the point more

    In fact, of all the artistic endeavors which Data' pursues, like painting, music & poetry etc... I think the only one I ever thought had any use for an individual bereft of an ability to truly appreciate it, was his acting in Shakespeare. That has a major practical application for a guy in his circumstance. Having the ability to act like someone is suppose to act has tangible real world use for him
     
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  5. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    I don't think Data is capable of any artistic creation. It seems all he can do is mix the styles of different artists, Like when he plays the Violin forty percent like Yehudi Menuhin and sixty percent like Itzhak Perlman...

    That's not art, that's... randomness...
     
  6. gazomg

    gazomg Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    how was the extended version of this released ?
    Was it only on the bluray package ?
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
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  7. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

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    Isn't that what humans do except for injection of their emotion and experience?
     
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  8. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    Not really, humans develop a style of their own according to their personality. Data is incapable of that, he has the personality of a roulette.
     
  9. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Commodore

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    When I play the guitar who knows what might come out of it if I try to compose some music. Personality or not it's some kind of roulette? Data only works differently, he has some programming. Picard said something like this in 'The Measure of a Man', "aren't humans machines too that just work in a different way?". There is some kind of "programming" in all of us.
     
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  10. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    They don't have a device to measure self-awareness and neither did Soong. So we're supposed to believe that he created a self-awaere being without the slightest idea of what it was?

    It would be like trying to create a car with no idea of how an internal combustion engine works or trying to make a computer without knowing the theory of semiconductors.

    The chances of Data being a self-aware being are about the same as for your dog to sing an aria from la Boheme!!!


    If there is one thing that we can bet on about self-awarenes it is that it won't be achieved by accident.
     
  11. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Commodore

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    Can self-awareness be measured from any of us?
    There would be some differences between a dog and Data, on at least some level Data knows what it means to be self-aware, a dog most likely doesn't. Data knows it because he can describe it.
    What if life on Earth is an accident? It just happened. By the number of stars and galaxies out there something might happen when there are so many building blocks.
    That's an electric car. ;)
     
  12. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    You're missing the point. You can't create something that you can't measure or more to the point that you can't prove exists.

    Hey I made you a <thing>, I can't prove it, you can't see it and I don't know how it works but believe me I made one!!! How does that sound?

    A dog is superior to Data and closer to us. A dog understands emotions and feels them, Data does neither.
    Data is a walking talking encyclopedia. Just look how he talks about things, "accessing.. " what human being says "accessing.." when thinking about something?
    A program can describe things but a dog is much more alive than any program will ever be.
    Self-awareness is an accident that took billions of years and billions of billions of hit and miss. If we made a plane the way nature made a bird it would take us ten millions of years to do so.

    Yeah, missing the point again...
     
  13. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Commodore

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    What is the current understanding these days, can animals have emotions? Do they have them? Emotions or not that doesn't make something self-aware or not. Does being close to us prove something about self-awareness?
    Some people mumble something when thinking very hard.
    It's kind of annoying when you're told that you're missing the point and then you're not told what is the point missed....
     
  14. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    You never had a dog, did you? Dogs can be happy, sad, angry, afraid, aggressive, submissive..plus other things and they can read these emotions in their owners. Anyone who's had a dog knows that.
    Whoever says "accessing.." when thinking about something????
    Your response was a non sequitur.
     
  15. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Commodore

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    Never needed one.
    Not very many but the point wasn't what word they use, people just might think out loud.
    This discussion might be that aswell.
     
  16. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, that is just about the very thing I personally think might've happened at least once already. So who's to say?
    If we accept as part of TNG's narrative that Data is a sapient being, then it's almost impossible that he'd NOT be capable of some level of creative cognition, which is the root of all art.
     
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  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It could probably be argued that anytime a person says "Er..." or "Ummm..." or such, or simply pauses before responding to a question that they're "Accessing..." Data seems to figure this out over time as well, as IIRC the incidences of him saying "Accessing..." drop over time.
     
  18. dupersuper

    dupersuper Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Ranking life forms worth at all, let alone by how close they are to us, seems very un-Star Trek.
     
  19. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    Data is not a life form.
     
  20. dupersuper

    dupersuper Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Them's fightin' words...