Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

DS9 knocked it out of the park. It even made second string characters like Nog, Rom, Vic, Kasidy, Dukat, Martok, and Weyoun (4, 5, 6, 7, and 8) interesting.

Given that Nog went from civilian to lieutenant under those writers, imagine the progress Harry could have made...

 

[DonIago]

It could probably be argued that the DS9 writers took "wormhole to another quadrant" and ultimately did the most predictable/least interesting thing they could have with it by ultimately having a hostile power lurking on the other side. They largely short-circuited the opportunity for exploration, for wonder, for...what we were used to seeing in Star Trek. Heck, once the Prophets wipe out the Dominion fleet, the wormhole is barely relevant to the rest of the series.

And yet, despite arguably taking the most predictable route, they built something amazing because they cared about the characters and having them grow over time.

I apologize for one thing: I don't mean to imply that the VOY writers themselves didn't care about the characters they were writing; I'm honestly not sure how much their hands were tied by the higher-ups. It's going to be very interesting to see the documentary...and there's no way I'll be able to watch it without comparing it to What We Left Behind.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

Someone in Voyager's food chain, probably one of the higher ups, had the common sense of a bowl of tapioca pudding. I mean, they didn't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant after a couple years.

 

[Frostscape One]

...I just found myself wondering what might have been if the DS9 and VOY writing teams had been reversed.

But the idea of DS9 blowing its potential is deeply distressing.

I posited that very question as a topic of another thread a few months back. Specifically, if Moore and Echevarria went to VOYAGER and Braga went to DS9.

 

[DonIago]

Someone in Voyager's food chain, probably one of the higher ups, had the common sense of a bowl of tapioca pudding. I mean, they didn't even know that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant after a couple years.

Didn't know, or didn't care?

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

Maybe they didn't know, maybe they thought we wouldn't notice/care. It was a boneheaded mistake either way.

 

[at Quark's]

If Voyager's and DS9's writing team had been reversed, I'd think DS9 would have never grown beyond 'Oehhh! The Gamma quadrant! Lots of aliens of the week with unusual features that happen to come through the wormhole or us finding strange planets on the other side!' phase. The Bajoran background story would have petered out halfway season 1. Major Kira (who wouldn't have grown out to become one of the most awesome characters on the show) would have been replaced in season 4 by someone sexier, to target a certain demographic.

Voyager, on the other hand, would have been a show that showed us some of the politics of the DQ. If need be, the writers probably wouldn't have hesitated to make up a reason to stall their progress for a year or two, in order to make the Voyager crew become involved, never abandoning the original premise though, and still getting them home at the end. The internecine conflict between Maquis and Starfleet would have been the object of several story arcs and always be in the background providing for a 'frenemy' atmosphere that only very slowly dissipates over the years. Probably they'd have shown Kes and Neelix to become pivotal points between the two factions, never allying 100% with one of both, but never betraying the other side either. We'd probably have seen much more in the way of temporary alliances between DQ factions involving Voyager.

 

[DonIago]

^What a world...

Too bad we can't have the DS9 writers on both series then. Or the VOY writers without the restrictions they were required to labor under, provided that's the primary issue.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

Major Kira (who wouldn't have grown out to become one of the most awesome characters on the show) would have been replaced in season 4 by someone sexier, to target a certain demographic.

That or made to wear the Kinky Kira Mirror Universe outfit all the time.

Too bad we can't have the DS9 writers on both series then. Or the VOY writers without the restrictions they were required to labor under, provided that's the primary issue.

I think that really was an issue. There was a plan to change things up with Harry in "Favorite Son" by having him really be an alien. It was shut down by the exec's. And, according to Garrett Wang, they were the ones responsible for the "someone gotta be the ensign" stupidity. It was like they wanted a stagnant character, like one of those redshirts only he doesn't die (or at least doesn't stay dead).

The higher-ups also reportedly forced transporters into "Enterprise", a show that would have made more sense not to have them (or at least have only aliens use them). Wouldn't wonder if they forced in PHOTON torpedoes, too.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

I was thinking about when would have been possible opportunities for Harry to gain his hollow pip... I think that the series offered a few.

1. Resolutions. Captain Tuvok doles out a few field promotions with the captain and Chakotay gone, to fill out the leadership vacuum. Janeway decides that Harry's can stay.

2. Future's End. In recognition of him successfully commanding the ship in her absence, Janeway bumps Harry up a level.

3. Night. Harry quietly makes LTJG in the two-month interim, possibly because he has accepted responsibility for the shuttle fabrication and construction team.

4. Life Line (corrected) Janeway gets a message from Starfleet: they have read her personnel reports, and approved promotions for Ensigns Vorik, Wildman, and Kim. They could also officially endorse Janeway's field commissions, allowing the Maquis crew to wear regular insignia.

5. Nightingale. Way later than it should have been, but Harry has just gotten a crash course in the difficult nature of command. Janeway concurs that he's not ready to be a captain (yet), but given what he's learned, he's ready to move one step closer to it.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I was thinking about when would have been possible opportunities for Harry to gain his hollow pip... I think that the series offered a few.

1. Resolutions. Captain Tuvok doles out a few field promotions with the captain and Chakotay gone, to fill out the leadership vacuum. Janeway decides that Harry's can stay.

IMO, it makes sense that it makes sense for Paris, as a defacto choice for First Officer and B'Elanna as "Senior Maquis" being promoted here makes sense, Kim less so unless he takes over as Tactical Officer/Second Officer which seems unlikely.

2. Future's End. In recognition of him successfully commanding the ship in her absence, Janeway bumps Harry up a level.

3. Night. Harry quietly makes LTJG in the two-month interim, possibly because he has accepted responsibility for the shuttle fabrication and construction team.

These make sense for Harry's "up to JG" moments.

4. Lifesigns. Janeway gets a message from Starfleet: they have read her personnel reports, and approved promotions for Ensigns Vorik, Wildman, and Kim. They could also officially endorse Janeway's field commissions, allowing the Maquis crew to wear regular insignia.

That's mid season 2, seems a little early to me. Although if he gets JG here, then he might make LT for the events of Future's End.

5. Nightingale. Way later than it should have been, but Harry has just gotten a crash course in the difficult nature of command. Janeway concurs that he's not ready to be a captain (yet), but given what he's learned, he's ready to move one step closer to it.

Another good point for Kim to make LT, particularly if Paris hasn't been bumped back up yet.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

That's mid season 2, seems a little early to me. Although if he gets JG here, then he might make LT for the events of Future's End.

That's because I was referring to "Life Line" in S6. Oops.

Though admittedly, thatvwould have been a better time for Harry to get his second gold pip, after receiving his hollow one in FE.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That's because I was referring to "Life Line" in S6. Oops.

Though admittedly, thatv would have been a better time for Harry to get his second gold pip, after receiving his hollow one in FE.

No problem.

And I agree that that would be a resonable point for that to happen, though him not getting his second gold pip before he gets back to the Alpha Quadrant wouldn't be out of the norm, and his suggestion that he could have been a lieutenant commander by that point was at best technically true (Will Riker made LTCDR in 4 years, at least 1 grade over the norm). Evidence from TNG which gives the best "optimium case", suggests 10-15 years to LT is fairly common absent of nepotism and politics (as in Will Riker's case).

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

Remember "Non Sequitur", which supposedly takes place 8 months after Harry's graduation. Consider if that timeline continued uninterrupted, with the Harry who was "supposed" to be there instead of the Harry of Voyager's timeline getting "inserted". Had that timeline continued, Harry might have had his hollow pip at that time. Allow maybe 18 months (2 years is the USN norm) for full LT and 4 years (USN norm = 5) to get to LCDR. That's 6y 2m, so yes, Harry's calculations were probably on target.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Remember "Non Sequitur", which supposedly takes place 8 months after Harry's graduation. Consider if that timeline continued uninterrupted, with the Harry who was "supposed" to be there instead of the Harry of Voyager's timeline getting "inserted". Had that timeline continued, Harry might have had his hollow pip at that time. Allow maybe 18 months (2 years is the USN norm) for full LT and 4 years (USN norm = 5) to get to LCDR. That's 6y 2m, so yes, Harry's calculations were probably on target.

It's certainly possible, after all Will Riker made it LCDR in four years.

On the other hand, Data in the episode Datalore tells Lore that it would take Lore 13-15 years to reach LCDR and the examples of LaForge, Worf and Jadzia suggest that two-thirds of that time is more typical (7-9 years).

So while I agree that he should be some from of lieutenant by that point, it's a bit of a stretch to assert that he should rather than could be a LCDR by this point.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

Will Riker was a really ill-advised retcon. Jonathan Frakes was 34 years old at the start of the series, and if we figure Riker was the same, that means he would have made commander after 12 years in Starfleet. Given that 15-17 is the USN norm, that makes Riker decidedly above average without making him a prodigy. Unfortunately, the writers just randomly decided to make him five years younger at some point. Similarly to the Harry Kim matter, they thought we were too stupid to notice.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Will Riker was a really ill-advised retcon. Jonathan Frakes was 34 years old at the start of the series, and if we figure Riker was the same, that means he would have made commander after 12 years in Starfleet. Given that 15-17 is the USN norm, that makes Riker decidedly above average without making him a prodigy. Unfortunately, the writers just randomly decided to make him five years younger at some point. Similarly to the Harry Kim matter, they thought we were too stupid to notice.

Agreed.

US Navy promotion times to:

CDR is 10.5 years TIG minimum, with the average at 16yrs TIS.
LCDR is 6.5 years TIG minimum, with the average at 10yrs TIS.
LT is 3.5 years TIG minimum, with the average at 5.5 years TIS.
JG is 18 months TIG & TIS.


US Army promotion times are fairly similar:

LCOL is 9.5 years minimum, with the average at 15-17 years TIS.
MAJ is 6.5 years minimum, with the average at 9-11 years TIS.
CAPT is 3.5 years minimum, with the average at 5 years TIS.
1LT is 18 months TIG & TIS.

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

CDR is 10.5 years TIG minimum, with the average at 16yrs TIS.
LCDR is 6.5 years TIG minimum, with the average at 10yrs TIS.
LT is 3.5 years TIG minimum, with the average at 5.5 years TIS.
JG is 18 months TIG & TIS.

Some of those TIG's look a little high. If you had to have a MINIMUM 6.5 years as a lieutenant to make LCDR, plus 10.5 as LCDR to make Commander, that's a minimum of 17 years in those two grades alone, not including time as ENS and LTJG. Doesn't jibe with the average TIS being 16 years.

 

[Swedish Borg]

harry's promotion is in the mail...

 

[Crazy 4 Xmas Lights]

I don't think it takes that long for a padd to get from Janeway to Harry. She could just hand it to him on the bridge after all.

Some "reasons" take effort to refute. Some do not. Take a wild guess which of the two this is...