Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion

[DEWLine]

Perhaps I incorrectly remember it, but Hydra didn't want to kill just few thousands?

Alexander Pierce was talking about 20 million on HYDRA's death list.

But we all know that was just going to be for openers. Once HYDRA admitted they'd hijacked SHIELD from the inside, the toll was going to climb higher because World War 3 would definitely have been underway: HYDRA vs. everyone else.

 

[Sci]

Alexander Pierce was talking about 20 million on HYDRA's death list.

But we all know that was just going to be for openers. Once HYDRA admitted they'd hijacked SHIELD from the inside, the toll was going to climb higher because World War 3 would definitely have been underway: HYDRA vs. everyone else.

Exactly. And with the inevitable mass deaths that come from forced relocations of millions of people, the GRC would have become mass murderers on the same level as Hydra was aiming for.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Sorry to those who disagree - I don't really care about the long term ramifications of the Blip, the Snap, the whatever. I get that it can be a narrative framework, but I do sincerely hope the MCU moves on quickly.

 

[DEWLine]

There have to be ongoing consequences, though.

 

[Skipper]

Sorry to those who disagree - I don't really care about the long term ramifications of the Blip, the Snap, the whatever. I get that it can be a narrative framework, but I do sincerely hope the MCU moves on quickly.

Seriously, how can you "move on quickly" on something like the blip? In universe, probably it was the most traumatic event ever experienced by the humanity.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Seriously, how can you "move on quickly" on something like the blip? In universe, probably was the most traumatic event ever experienced by the humanity.

We are talking about comic books, right? Seriously insane stuff happens all the time, with worlds destroyed, a gazillion civvies slaughtered, terrible stuff happening to faceless crowds, but our focus and emotional investment is in the main characters, their triumphs and defeats. The world around them is a backdrop, or at best a prop to hold up a portion of the main story. Even TFATWS touches on that when the main heroes don't give two hoots about the Sokovia memorial. When we get too bogged down in the real world consequences of the hero's actions, we lose momentum and infuse poisonous realism in to the fantastical elements of the story.

 

[Jedi_Master]

There have to be ongoing consequences, though.

Mixed in judicially like ghost pepper sauce, sure. But they can't overwhelm or unbalance the story.

 

[DEWLine]

*stares at the phrase "poisonous realism" with shock*

 

[Skipper]

We are talking about comic books, right? Seriously insane stuff happens all the time, with worlds destroyed, a gazillion civvies slaughtered, terrible stuff happening to faceless crowds, but our focus and emotional investment is in the main characters, their triumphs and defeats.

Well, no, we aren't talking about "comic books". In the MCU The Earth is not in danger of being eaten by Galactus every odd day. The biggest thing before the "blip" was the alien attack on New York, and even that was a very local event.

 

[Jedi_Master]

*stares at the phrase "poisonous realism" with shock*

What happens when you start to over-emphasize realism in the MCU? It's full of fantastical stuff, some of it hardly even adjacent to reality! Hero's abilities that make no sense, weapons that wouldn't EVER work, organizations that spring from impossible circumstances, and so on and so forth. At some point the intrusion of reality is dangerous to the health of the entire story. It's best not to let them dwell on it too awfully long.

 

[Anwar]

The problem is when you inject too much realism into these works, you start to think Zemo had a point and Superbeings really are a bigger danger than anything.

 

[Sci]

Sorry to those who disagree - I don't really care about the long term ramifications of the Blip, the Snap, the whatever. I get that it can be a narrative framework, but I do sincerely hope the MCU moves on quickly.

Seriously, how can you "move on quickly" on something like the blip? In universe, probably it was the most traumatic event ever experienced by the humanity.

This is true. But the Marvel Cinematic Universe is a collection of works of fiction, and if the creators don't want to maintain total consistency between installments so as to facilitate their creative goals in each individual project, that's their prerogative as creators. I mean, they've already done that on a smaller scale. Iron Man 3 ends with Tony realizing he needs to move on from his role as a superhero in order to grow as a person; Avengers: Age of Ultron begins with Tony back in the suit Because Reasons. In Captain America: Civil War, supporting Steve in his rebellion against the Sokovia Accords is depicted as this big thing that would probably land his compatriots in prison for the rest of their lives, but in Ant-Man and the Wasp we find out that the biggest consequence for Scott was being put under house arrest and needing to sneak out from under FBI Agent Randall Park now and then in a silly cat-and-mouse game. They weren't going to totally upturn the creative direction of the Ant-Man films to satisfy the creative direction of the Captain America films; they weren't going to do the second Avengers without Robert Downey Jr. just because of the creative decisions made in Iron Man 3.

The problem is when you inject too much realism into these works, you start to think Zemo had a point and Superbeings really are a bigger danger than anything.

I mean, in real life, super-powered people, especially super-powered vigilantes, really would pose a major social problem, because the organization of society is basically built around the understanding that no one individual is capable of physically overpowering the state. Superbeings would represent a fundamental disruption to the social fabric in that regard, and their presence would become pretty destabilizing and probably provoke a lot of reactionary violence.

 

[Anwar]

I mean, in real life, super-powered people, especially super-powered vigilantes, really would pose a major social problem, because the organization of society is basically built around the understanding that no one individual is capable of physically overpowering the state. Superbeings would represent a fundamental disruption to the social fabric in that regard, and their presence would become pretty destabilizing and probably provoke a lot of reactionary violence.

In other words, some would become new Icons to people. Fans would be become outright followers, movements would form, rivalries between groups following different Supers would also begin....fighting would start and people would die.

Just like Zemo said.

It's a bit ironic that FATWS in one scene gave more nuance and depth to the whole "Supers and Normals" potential conflict than the FOX-Men movies ever could.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Ah, so people with advanced combat training always win and are incapable of being outmatched in spite of that training? Good to know.

Just because she had training doesn't mean he doesn't have considerably more experience than she, nor that she's entirely in her right mind when she's talking to him in that sequence. Just because she has confidence that she can fight him doesn't mean she's correct.

Out of curiosity, how do you explain her beating Bucky during the convoy fight in episode 2? She's got skills, and she's got strength. Doesn't mean she's a match for Walker in a straight up fight, but she's no pushover.

The combat matchups were more about plot than training.

Karli: We don't know anything about her past, she may have a black-belt in something or other as a teenager. Or not. She uses her size to her advantage, ducking, dodging, etc. In the first encounter with Bucky he was off guard thinking she was a hostage. Most of that fight was Buck and Sam against multiple Flag Smashers so it's hard to say. Later fights are driven by the power-of-plot.

Walker: Military training does not focus on hand-to-hand and acrobatics, much less shield slinging. Yes you get some, but 99% is firearms focusing on team co-ordination. Walker would obviously have received additional training for the CA job, coming from trainers-who-were-not-Steve-Rodgers for a couple of months, easily allowing him to out-punch anyone other than hot Wakandan women (sarcasm). Considering Bucky had WWII commando training, Hydra assassin training, dozens of missions as the Winter Soldier, gone toe-to-toe against Steve multiple times, he and Steve toe-to-toe against Iron Man, and then there's Thanos' hoards, I'd say Walker lasting 20 seconds against Bucky and Sam would be optimistic. The fights were driven by plot, not realistic training/experience levels.

Bucky: Seriously under-powered compared to his performance in CA-TWS, but this is plot-driven, and possibly excused by de-programming in Wakanda which may have repressed much of his training and experience.

Sam: Frankly I've always wondered how someone trained and experienced in "para-rescue" has a level of combat prowess that enables him to beat up pretty much anyone, but I love the guy and want to watch his shows/movies. The amount of practice he put in during episode 5 helps but it's still a stretch. I'd believe, say, Clint Barton could have stepped into the role that quickly. That said, I enjoyed the show and want more.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I haven't read the comics so I don't have context of the history of John Walker but here is my experience based on what I saw in the show.

He's a normal guy who was entrusted with a legacy he couldn't live up to. He's egotistical, but egotism is not the same as narcissism. He's capable of caring about people, he just can't control his emotions and doesn't have the temperament of a hero but he's facing the pressure of those expectations that have been projected onto him.

John Walker is a good whiskey brand but similarly priced whiskeys are better. A Johnny Walker scotch is equally good as a great whiskey that costs half as much. Maybe a metaphor for Walker's journey. He could have been a good hero given the training of a hero. But he was overvalued, given responsibilities he wasn't ready for, and he responded accordingly due to the pressure.

 

[theenglish]

I tend to agree that I don't want to see the MCU spend too much plot time on ramifications of the blip--these are super-hero movies, not Margaret Atwood.

I am happy that both Wandavision and TFAWS spent time addressing the ramifications in a way that served and supported the plot of each of their stories, and I hope the complexities of the new reality continue to be addressed. But, as in the comics, I would like to see the issue continue to be a part of the backdrop of the universe--in fact, I hope that the nature of a super, magical, Wakandan world is used to fix the issues or at least address that there is a plan being implemented.

 

[Skipper]

The combat matchups were more about plot than training.

Karli: We don't know anything about her past, she may have a black-belt in something or other as a teenager. Or not. She uses her size to her advantage, ducking, dodging, etc. In the first encounter with Bucky he was off guard thinking she was a hostage. Most of that fight was Buck and Sam against multiple Flag Smashers so it's hard to say. Later fights are driven by the power-of-plot.

Walker: Military training does not focus on hand-to-hand and acrobatics, much less shield slinging. Yes you get some, but 99% is firearms focusing on team co-ordination. Walker would obviously have received additional training for the CA job, coming from trainers-who-were-not-Steve-Rodgers for a couple of months, easily allowing him to out-punch anyone other than hot Wakandan women (sarcasm). Considering Bucky had WWII commando training, Hydra assassin training, dozens of missions as the Winter Soldier, gone toe-to-toe against Steve multiple times, he and Steve toe-to-toe against Iron Man, and then there's Thanos' hoards, I'd say Walker lasting 20 seconds against Bucky and Sam would be optimistic. The fights were driven by plot, not realistic training/experience levels.

Bucky: Seriously under-powered compared to his performance in CA-TWS, but this is plot-driven, and possibly excused by de-programming in Wakanda which may have repressed much of his training and experience.

Sam: Frankly I've always wondered how someone trained and experienced in "para-rescue" has a level of combat prowess that enables him to beat up pretty much anyone, but I love the guy and want to watch his shows/movies. The amount of practice he put in during episode 5 helps but it's still a stretch. I'd believe, say, Clint Barton could have stepped into the role that quickly. That said, I enjoyed the show and want more.

Well obviously the fights in the MCU are unrealistic and mostly focus on hand-to-hand. In all six episodes they will have barely fired a dozen times. Or less. The Flag Smashers may have ingested the super serum, but a good sniper could easily have handled most of them.

 

[Starkers]

Bucky: Seriously under-powered compared to his performance in CA-TWS, but this is plot-driven, and possibly excused by de-programming in Wakanda which may have repressed much of his training and experience.

Absolutely, plus of course now he gives a shit about people. The Winter solider didn't care about collateral damage and had no compunction about killing anyone in his way. Bucky now has to be aware of innocents caught in the crossfire, plus he doesn't want to kill anyone he's fighting unless he has absolutely no choice. I imagine his reactions are slowed as a result, he's probably nowhere near as instinctive as he was, plus he's likely pulling some of his punches now as in most cases he cares whether or not he punches someone's head off!

 

[Skipper]

Me after yet another inconclusive fist fight

By the way, I'm absolutely pro-deescalation and I think that police should use guns only as an absolutely last resort, but really, at this point even the most lenient law enforcement out there would have used deadly force against them. Let's imagine that a SWAT member had filled them with bullets as they were about to kill the hostages. I think even the most liberal politician would have said that the use of force was justified.

 

[Oso Blanco]

There is no excuse for terrorism. May the Flag Smashers burn in hell!