Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion

[Starkers]

Yup, that was my understanding of the situation. I do wish the show delved a little deeper into that scenario, although I freely admit (as proven by discussions in this thread and others) that the deeper we dig into the implications of the two Snaps, the much uglier the situation should be instead of what we've been seeing.

Absolutely. You could take superheroes completely out of the equation and the dramatic opportunities afforded by the Blip are legion!

• After the snap I came to America to help rebuild, I got a good job, bought a house and pay my taxes. Now people have returned I've been fired and evicted.
• I was a successful businessman, I had a good job and a house, suddenly in the flicker of a flame five years have gone by. An immigrant took my job and my home and now I've living in a tent.
• I reappeared to find my wife was suddenly five years older and she's now married to someone else.
• I spent the last five years married to Doug, but now his first wife is back, still looking like she did five years ago, and she wants him back!
• A serial killer returns during the blip to find five years have seen his trail go cold, he starts killing again and the FBI have to rely on a retired agent to try and track him down.

That's just from a couple of minutes brainstorming.

 

[dupersuper]

[QUOTE="Starkers, post: 13768126, member: 391]
I spent the last five years married to Doug, but now his first wife is back, still looking like she did five years ago, and she wants him back![/QUOTE]

Boy, Doug sure moved on right away...

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

[QUOTE="Starkers, post: 13768126, member: 391]
I spent the last five years married to Doug, but now his first wife is back, still looking like she did five years ago, and she wants him back!

Boy, Doug sure moved on right away...

"Another day, another Doug"

 

[Sci]

I just want to emphasize again that (while the series did not acknowledge this that I can recall), in real life, forcibly relocating millions of people always leads to mass death at the scale of hundreds of thousands to millions.

The GRC was literally plotting to murder hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people. These people were planning to become mass-murdering war criminals on the same scale as Hydra's attempted mass-murder using SHIELD hellicarriers in Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

 

[Skipper]

I just want to emphasize again that (while the series did not acknowledge this that I can recall), in real life, forcibly relocating millions of people always leads to mass death at the scale of hundreds of thousands to millions.

The GRC was literally plotting to murder hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people. These people were planning to become mass-murdering war criminals on the same scale as Hydra's attempted mass-murder using SHIELD hellicarriers in Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

Perhaps I incorrectly remember it, but Hydra didn't want to kill just few thousands?

 

[Sci]

Perhaps I incorrectly remember it, but Hydra didn't want to kill just few thousands?

Nope. They were looking to scratch off a couple million potential leaders of future rebellions against their reign after they finished overthrowing the world's governments.

 

[Starkers]

[QUOTE="Starkers, post: 13768126, member: 391
I spent the last five years married to Doug, but now his first wife is back, still looking like she did five years ago, and she wants him back!

Boy, Doug sure moved on right away...[/QUOTE]
oops maybe 4 years

 

[Thestral]

I just want to emphasize again that (while the series did not acknowledge this that I can recall), in real life, forcibly relocating millions of people always leads to mass death at the scale of hundreds of thousands to millions.

The GRC was literally plotting to murder hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people. These people were planning to become mass-murdering war criminals on the same scale as Hydra's attempted mass-murder using SHIELD hellicarriers in Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

The trouble is that Marvel wrote themselves into a situation where if you apply any sort of "Reality Ensues" logic there's going to hundreds of thousands and probably millions of deaths. That's simply unavoidable when you have over 3.5 billion people vanish in effectively the blink of an eye, and then return just as suddenly 5 years later. Even without some sort of government organization you're going to have hundreds of millions of people suddenly competing for the same land, resources, etc.

Who deserves those? Should Thanos' victims just be told "tough luck" for being unlucky in the cosmic coin toss, thus further victimizing them? We see an example of that with Sam's family, in fact.

The entire population of the world is going to be traumatized, one way or the other. While you're right about forcible relocation leading to mass death, not having some sort of formalized process is also going to lead to mass death and perhaps - probably? - worse.

The entire situation is a dystopic nightmare when you try to use real world logic on it and it's one of Marvel's biggest flaws because there's nothing to compare it to. The Flag Smashers have laudable ideals but they simply don't seem to care about the half of the world's people who found everything completely different in the blink of an eye (like we saw in WandaVision). Should they have been forcibly relocated instead?

 

[Skipper]

A person on Twitter pointed out one thing (obviously totally unintentional on the part of the authors).

Karli said that Lamar's life didn't matter. Lamar was black.

So..?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

A person on Twitter pointed out one thing (obviously totally unintentional on the part of the authors).

Karli said that Lamar's life didn't matter. Lamar was black.

So..?

It sounds like somone was reading something into Karli's line not implied by her, since it is highly unlikely that she--a half black woman--would make a sociopolitical statement about Lemar's life having no value. The offense of her statement was that no one matters if they did not further / fit into her agenda.

 

[valkyrie013]

So 3.5 Billion jobless, homeless people just show up.. Tada!
The lucky ones would have had family of some kind that didn't blip and they kept the house, maybe job open. But alot of people wouldn't have a house/appartment any more, others would have moved in, or for the past 5 years gone into dis repair from having no upkeep.
Lets take an example, A blip has a home, he blips off, after some time, the bank takes ownership and sells it to person B. Blip comes back, goes to house, sees person B. So now what?
The bank owes him some money, whatever he paid, or the bank finds him another house and whatever payments he's made count forward.
So more than likely, empty homes would be owned by banks, and the return's have to deal them.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What if they fixed the world?

Arc reactors every where.

The environment cleaned.

Free healthcare.

Free education.

Religion shuts the hell up.

Other stuff.

They made a planet that has 3 billion, which can support 15 billion.

 

[Noname Given]

So 3.5 Billion jobless, homeless people just show up.. Tada!
The lucky ones would have had family of some kind that didn't blip and they kept the house, maybe job open. But alot of people wouldn't have a house/appartment any more, others would have moved in, or for the past 5 years gone into dis repair from having no upkeep.
Lets take an example, A blip has a home, he blips off, after some time, the bank takes ownership and sells it to person B. Blip comes back, goes to house, sees person B. So now what?
The bank owes him some money, whatever he paid, or the bank finds him another house and whatever payments he's made count forward.
So more than likely, empty homes would be owned by banks, and the return's have to deal them.

That's only if the 'blipped' person had no relatives. I'm sure in a few months, 'Blipped' estates would begin the transfer of property to any relatives based on Trusts or Wills; or any relative coming forward to claim the property that could verify his/her status as a relative.

That said, given the sheer number of such claims and reduced court staff to handle such claims; after 5 years a lot of said claims might still be winding their way through the legal process in various countries - UNLESS said countries passed legislation to streamline/speed up the process.

 

[Sci]

Who deserves those? Should Thanos' victims just be told "tough luck" for being unlucky in the cosmic coin toss, thus further victimizing them?

Of course not. But the Flag Smashers weren't fighting for that to happen. Remember, the chain of events was that during the Blip, people from economically underdeveloped countries were invited into the wealthier countries to help replace Thanos's victims in the developed nations' economies, and then after the Blip the GRC was getting ready to forcibly relocate those same persons back to their countries of origin.

What the Flag Smashers were demanding was that persons previously invited into developed nations not be forcibly relocated out of those developed nations. That's it. That's not an unreasonable ask: "Don't kick me out after you let me in."

The entire population of the world is going to be traumatized, one way or the other. While you're right about forcible relocation leading to mass death, not having some sort of formalized process is also going to lead to mass death and perhaps - probably? - worse.

I agree! And the Flag Smashers were not organizing against having a formal process to help people post-Blip. They were fighting against marginalized people being further oppressed through mass level forced relocations.

The entire situation is a dystopic nightmare when you try to use real world logic on it and it's one of Marvel's biggest flaws because there's nothing to compare it to. The Flag Smashers have laudable ideals but they simply don't seem to care about the half of the world's people who found everything completely different in the blink of an eye

I see no evidence of that whatsoever. If someone organizes for Black Lives Matter, does that mean they don't care about equal rights for transgender people? The fact that the Flag Smashers are organizing for a specific cause does not mean they don't care about other causes, it just means that those other causes are not their focus.

The Flag Smashers aren't trying to screw over people who were Blipped. The internationally displaced people the Flag Smashers were fighting for were already living in refugee camps as a result of Blippped people returning and being allowed to reclaim their homes. The Flag Smashers are fighting for refugees who are being screwed over, not trying to screw over Blipped people.

And the Flag Smashers are, it cannot be emphasized enough, trying to prevent what amounts to a genocide-level war crime.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The most glaring problem of all is that Marvel took the snap plot to that level in the first place, when they were never going to properly address the effect of a catastrophe of that level. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier used it as the motivator for the villains, so there was some focus on the matter, but beyond that? Nothing of any substance in Endgame and especially in Spider-Man: Far from Home, the latter presenting a world that appeared to be operating so seamlessly from what existed before--every travel destination seen in the film were all business as usual, yet in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, the world is dark and going through a patently chaotic period of history.

There's no attention to paid to details and the idea of true consequences of this "biggest ever" disaster / conflict in the Marvel movies--especially with the end result it had been working toward through twenty one movies. Being too concerned with said "biggest ever" spectacle and only really addressing it in one TV series is a serious storytelling failing, and there's no guarantee that any other Marvel production going forward (aside from the forthcoming Captain America 4) will pay more than a passing reference to it.

 

[Sci]

The most glaring problem of all is that Marvel took the snap plot to that level in the first place, when they were never going to properly address the effect of a catastrophe of that level. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier used it as the motivator for the villains, so there was some focus on the matter, but beyond that? Nothing of any substance in Endgame and especially in Spider-Man: Far from Home, the latter presenting a world that appeared to be operating so seamlessly from what existed before--every travel destination seen in the film were all business as usual, yet in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, the world is dark and going through a patently chaotic period of history.

There's no attention to paid to details and the idea of true consequences of this "biggest ever" disaster / conflict in the Marvel movies--especially with the end result it had been working toward through twenty one movies. Being too concerned with said "biggest ever" spectacle and only really addressing it in one TV series is a serious storytelling failing, and there's no guarantee that any other Marvel production going forward (aside from the forthcoming Captain America 4) will pay more than a passing reference to it.

Yeah, Marvel has no interest in being consistent from film to film (or TV show to TV show) about how devastating the Blip was. They wanted Spider-Man: Far From Home to be a mostly light-hearted movie where the only weighty part would be Peter coping with Tony's death, so that's what it was. They wanted The Falcon and the Winter Soldier to be a darker, more realistic look at what some of the consequences of the Blip would be, so that's what it was. They're going to ask the audience to squint a bit on the continuity so that different projects can achieve different creative goals. But that's really not that much different from what they did before -- the Hydra-inside-SHIELD-all-along and Bucky-as-Hydra-puppet revelations don't hold up too well if you subject them to too much scrutiny, for instance.

 

[David cgc]

What the Flag Smashers were demanding was that persons previously invited into developed nations not be forcibly relocated out of those developed nations. That's it. That's not an unreasonable ask: "Don't kick me out after you let me in."

And then what?

I agree! And the Flag Smashers were not organizing against having a formal process to help people post-Blip. They were fighting against marginalized people being further oppressed through mass level forced relocations.

And then what?

I see no evidence of that whatsoever. If someone organizes for Black Lives Matter, does that mean they don't care about equal rights for transgender people? The fact that the Flag Smashers are organizing for a specific cause does not mean they don't care about other causes, it just means that those other causes are not their focus.

That's a terrible analogy. BLM succeeding doesn't definitionally push the same wallpaper-bubble of oppression over to trans people. Racist police brutality isn't a shitty solution to a real problem that would then have to be solved in some other shitty way, it's an awful thing that can be excised from society without any cost. There isn't some racism monster out there requiring police brutality that would still need to be fed with atrocities against different people.

If you want to transplant this into the real world, look at the people organizing for total police abolition. Does that mean they think you should just be SOL if someone breaks into your house, or steals your bike, or beats you up on the street, or the traffic signals break at a major intersection? Frequently, yes, judging by how often I see that question answered with, "The police don't help victims now, so what's the big loss?" Not everybody thinks these things through as much as you seem to assume, and it's bad when you're so dedicated to solving the immediate problem you can't even conceive that your solution could have problems of its own.

The Flag Smasher's goal, by definition, is to make what had been their problem into anyone else's problem. Do you genuinely believe, based on her stated motivations and backstory, Karli Morgenthau would've been agitating for the returnees if they were being relocated, in the new, borderless world, to the places that had been abandoned and forgotten by her friends during the Blip? I mean, she wasn't the one who got on TV and gave a big speech about they can't look at the problem in terms of winners and losers, that the solution isn't to load all the suffering to the backs of the most disposable people, but for everyone to chip in and sacrifice a little, recognizing everyone is entitled to common human dignity and respect, and it's never acceptable for anyone to be written off as a problem and obstacle to be ignored to death, even when the person doing it is coded left-wing and not right-wing.

And the Flag Smashers are, it cannot be emphasized enough, trying to prevent what amounts to a genocide-level war crime.

Against them. They don't give a shit about any genocide-level war-crimes against other people that might happen, so long as they, personally, are taken care of. It's in the text. "Zemo thinks you're a supremacist." "That's ridiculous, I'm not a supremacist, I'm just morally and physically superior to the corrupt international ruling class, have tunnel-vision about helping the people I'm personally sympathetic to, and have no concern or interest in out-groups to the point of dehumanizing them and only considering their deaths in terms of whether or not they'd give me a political advantage or disadvantage."

 

[Sci]

And then what?

And then what?

It's not their job to figure out "and then what." Their job is to prevent mass forced relocation of internationally displaced persons and the genocide-level mass death that will accompany it. They do not have an obligation to come up with alternate plans; that's the GRC's duty.

The Flag Smasher's goal, by definition, is to make what had been their problem into anyone else's problem.

No, they're not, because the presence of internationally displaced persons is not a "problem" that needs to be solved.

Do you genuinely believe, based on her stated motivations and backstory, Karli Morgenthau would've been agitating for the returnees if they were being relocated,

Yes.

They don't give a shit about any genocide-level war-crimes against other people that might happen

You have no evidence to back that up whatsoever. Pure projection.

 

[The Wormhole]

Boy, Doug sure moved on right away...

Clearly Doug is a Seize The Moment kind of guy.

 

[Anwar]

The most glaring problem of all is that Marvel took the snap plot to that level in the first place, when they were never going to properly address the effect of a catastrophe of that level. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier used it as the motivator for the villains, so there was some focus on the matter, but beyond that? Nothing of any substance in Endgame and especially in Spider-Man: Far from Home, the latter presenting a world that appeared to be operating so seamlessly from what existed before--every travel destination seen in the film were all business as usual, yet in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, the world is dark and going through a patently chaotic period of history

Far From Home didn't do anything with it because Spider-Man in the comics has always been bad with keeping up with the big events and the impact they should have on him. It's like when Norman Osborn was made Nick Fury's replacement and the Spider-Man comics ignored this for most of its time because the writers didn't want to have Peter dealing with anything that wasn't "grounded".

There's no attention to paid to details and the idea of true consequences of this "biggest ever" disaster / conflict in the Marvel movies--especially with the end result it had been working toward through twenty one movies.

We've only had one movie thus far set after the Blip, and the 2 TV shows have dealt with it.