Are you saying they killed evil Kirk, good Kirk or both?
I thought Klingon years were longer...
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Tuvix Episode Revisited
- Thread starter Robert Leva
- Start date
Are you saying they killed evil Kirk, good Kirk or both?
I thought Klingon years were longer...
How about evil "female" Kirk throwing a tantrum? IMO, that's the worst of them all!!! I can't watch that episode without bursting into laughter at Shatner's overacting.
How about evil "female" Kirk throwing a tantrum? IMO, that's the worst of them all!!! I can't watch that episode without bursting into laughter at Shatner's overacting.
I'm not sure how this relates to my question.
Well, it's a digression, but a good one, IMO.
True, and there are Star Trek decisions that in my view are a good deal more detestable than this one. Picard willing to let the last survivors die on a planet surface because the Prime Directive dictates it, and somehow, cultural contamination is apparently worse than extinction of a sapient species would be one of them in my book. In this case, at least, you could argue that Janeway was faced with a difficult conundrum with no clear-cut solution. No matter what decision you take, someone would always die/ have died in retrospect.
To quote the same Janeway: We're Starfleet. Weird is part of the job.
Fully agree with this one. She appears to have been be mighty hasty. Perhaps because the feared that the longer she waited the more bonds Tuvix would form with the new crew and the harder it would be to actually execute her decision. In fact, she admits so herself:
Would she be obligated to explain her actions when they returned to the Alpha quadrant? or is it like Vegas, whatever happens in Delta quadrant stays in Delta quadrant? And also, doesn't her junior officers have an obligation to report her actions once they get back home?
My point... it doesn't matter. If court martialed, Janeway would likely be exonerated, because the Federation does not have laws for anything like Tuvix's case. Her actions might be deplorable, but that doesn't mean they're punishable.
I think the Federation has laws against murder. Her actions would be punishable in a coherent world but Star Trek is rarely coherent, much less when it comes to Voyager which is schizophrenic to a fault. What's true today may be wrong tomorrow and vice versa.
I'm in the middle on this one, always have been, which I believe makes it a great episode. I don't always need finality in my stories, I'm cool with a bit of ambiguity (Hi there Sopranos finale!) or grey areas morality-wise. Is it not conceivable that Tuvix was a new life form? In which case Janeway is arguably breaking General Order 1 (even though in many episodes that's more a suggestion than a rule, lol).
I can't do a Tuvix post without adding I thought Tom Wright was brilliant in those final moments.
I can't do a Tuvix post without adding I thought Tom Wright was brilliant in those final moments.
Thomas Riker claimed his doppelgangers commission in Starfleet.
Transporter clones are real people with rights.
Will Riker is just as fake as Tom, and he kept his commission.
B'Elanna is also a Transporter Clone.
She kept her provisional rank badge.
Not even Klingon any more.
She's a surgically altered human.
So all that crap about her baby being too klingon is ridiculous.
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Tuvix's situation was unprecedented. Generally, when a transporter mistake occurs, it is (1) fatal, (2) does great harm to one or more people. Either way, correcting it if possible is pretty much expected. Here, we had a transporter error that was not only sentient, but didn't want to be corrected. If Tuvix had been the subject of "The Measure of a Man", I could see him being granted the protection of the law... but he didn't have it yet.
Consider this: if Picard had not fought Maddox in "Measure of a Man", and Data had died on Maddox's table, Maddox would not have been subject to murder, because (at the time) disassembling Data was not murder. Even if Soong type androids were later found to be sentient. This is because Maddox (and Janeway) were operating within the parameters of the law at the time. Many other evil and disgusting actions (slavery, stealing land from Native Americans, treating women as chattel) were as well.
Consider this: if Picard had not fought Maddox in "Measure of a Man", and Data had died on Maddox's table, Maddox would not have been subject to murder, because (at the time) disassembling Data was not murder. Even if Soong type androids were later found to be sentient. This is because Maddox (and Janeway) were operating within the parameters of the law at the time. Many other evil and disgusting actions (slavery, stealing land from Native Americans, treating women as chattel) were as well.
According to Federation law (I hope) killing a sentient being is murder regardless of the origin of that sentient being. Janeway is a murderer who got away with it because of plot stupidity. Just because the writers are lacking intelligence doesn't me that we should. Suspension of disbelief doesn't mean suspension of intellect.
She didn't have the right to make that decision, no one person does.
They killed Tuvix and later told the story to Naomi as if it was a joke.
Tuvix was very clever, more so than Tuvok, but he never realized what a bunch assholes were calling themselves his friends. He only saw it when he was about to die.
Sorry got to disagree, Tuvix can't be held responsible for how he came to be i.e. the Transporter accident. He was a new sentient lifeform and as such was entitled to all the rights the UFP bestows upon sentient beings, which includes not being killed against his will i.e. murdered.
Surely Tuvix would technically be a civilian and Starfleet officers are supposed to protect civilians even at the cost of their own life. One could possibly make a case that separating Tuvix would case more harm as you can you harm people who aren't there in body to harm?
But from a legal point of view Janeway didn't have any business make a decision like that in which she was emotionally invested.
Isn't that the rub she had already lost those friends (until they found a way to reverse the accident) it was certainly morally wrong and probably legally wrong as I said earlier Tuvix would appear to meet the criteria for a sentient being and as such entitled to all the protections that the UFP grants to sentient beings.
That's debatable. Tuvix himself may not have personally gone through the Academy, but Tuvok did, and so it could be argued that for that reason alone, Tuvix qualifies as Starfleet.
The snag is, Tuvok isn't being given the choice to do so.
OTOH, if Tuvix qualifies as a Starfleet officer...couldn't he be obligated to give up his life so that Tuvok and Neelix could live?
Not allowing Tuvok and Neelix their own individual existences could certainly qualify as harm.
I don't see Janeway as overtly emotional in this case. She is acting to protect two members of her crew. (Note the plural: TWO.) Which is entirely within her rights as captain.
If a judge or jury member knows any member of any party involved in a case they are supposed to recuse themselves from the case in order to maintain impartiality. Sure she has a duty to protect her crew from harm, but was there an immediate risk of harm occuring to Tuvok and/or Neelix?
It's not anywhere near the same thing.
Janeway, as a starship captain, is by definition partial to anyone serving under her command - she can't be objective. A captain MUST act to protect their crew and passengers.
A judge must, as you say, be objective regarding anyone involved in a court case. But a captain cannot possibly do so regarding their crew.
As long as they remain separated, yes, there was.
He was wearing a Starfleet uniform with lieutenant insignia. That suggests that, for intents and purposes, he "inherited" Tuvok's rank and position.
Why so much lack of concern from the crew? Did they dislike Tuvix that much or was it because they wanted Tuvox and Neelix back that they couldn't careless if Tuvix died? I know it was Capt. Janeway's decision alone, but it doesn't seem like she got much resistance from the others expect from the Dr. Does this episode make her look like a tyrant?
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