Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion

[Oso Blanco]

But, the writers have done their homework, as terrorists (e.g. Antifa) are the first to point fingers and make blanket judgements, yet engage in terror as if they are somehow virtuous.

Well said!

Antifa aren't terrorists....

Antifa are not terrorists.

Then why do they behave like terrorists? Or is terrorism from the left any better or more justifiable than terrorism from the right, or religious terrorism? Extreme left and extreme right are much more alike than they would ever admit. Both would enslave the whole world to their fascist ideas if they could, no matter how many people would have to die.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Besides, the whole reason Ayo was there was because of how Zemo killed T'Chaka so it's not that surprising T'Challa hasn't been name checked. As for why he may not have gone to deal with it himself, I imagine he reflected on how he behaved the last time he chased Zemo and decided it was better to send someone else.

Hit the brakes. T'Calla--the leader of Wakanda--prevented Zemo from killing himself, so he would face justice. That--obviously--happened. Zemo being on the streets--and in the custody of one (Bucky) who one can assume is trusted by the Wakandans to some degree should have given Ayo pause before going after Zemo. The point is that the script should have had someone at least refer to--or possibly accuse Bucky of going against T'Challa's wishes (by name) by setting Zemo free.

Nope, not even close. Antifa is short for antifascists

I'm not going to derail this thread further with his sideline topic, but I must say that no, you--and anyone repeating that line are not close by any stretch of the imagination. From those in my business (news media) who have thoroughly investigated and covered that group on the ground, behind closed doors--the works, their stated purpose (what the CNNs of the world are "reporting") is the opposite of their actions, what their benefactors are known to believe and planning. None of that is for the benefit of the people--especially what my people--black people--truly need. To that end, serious black activists (not to be found among the CBC, Sharpton, et al.) are usually ignored by the loudest cacklers of news media (the Left, because they--in typical fashion want to promote the group by making their viewers believe the group's interests are black people's interests / the Right, who attempt to tie black Americans with Antifa as the Next National, Civil War-triggering Boogeyman) have long separated themselves from Antifa (and other active groups similar to that one), certainly do not support their acts and do not buy the packaged Statement of Purpose.

There's a reason, one most here are never going to understand, and a conversation they will never have.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Wow...Great episode.

I really enjoyed seeing how Bucky was 'freed' - although I always assumed it was something like that - IE someone triggered him with the keywords and said "You're free.." (very much like a similar scene in "The Manchurian Candidate".)

Good catch.

The scene where he kills the Flag Smasher in front of a crowd (which he knew was there) just underscores how damaged a soldier he is. It scares me a bit that some posters in this thread seemed to not have an issue with that action and were cheering for him

Board members were cheering for / supporting Walker murdering the man?

Nothing felt forced because of 'needs of the plot'. Battlestar's death was a result of him being overmatched, but believing he could handle it because hey, Sam Wilson's also just a 'regular guy' who's survived fights with Super Soldiers and god-like entities, so yeah - Hoskins felt he was up to the task too.

Ah, but as we witnessed with Walker's desire to fight Sam (in Zemo's room), he (Sam) is underestimated as being "just" a regular man. Karli also assumed as much, by telling his sister that she's wondering if she will have to kill him--as if that's so easy a task. Sam's training under the--arguably--greatest hand-to-hand fighter in the world (Steve Rogers) gives him an edge that had him (for brief time) block the attacks from one of Ayo's guards, and get his shots in against the super-powered Flag Smashers (not to mention what he experienced in the last two Avengers movies). Walker, Hoskins and the Flag Smashers should have had their eyes opened during the two conflicts.

Looking forward to see how they play all this out, but a great job so far.

It is. As I've posted before, this is the best Marvel anything since The Punisher. The franchise really needs to see the value in this kind of storytelling, so that its not a here-and-there event.

 

[Turtletrekker]

If you want to be taken seriously while talking about terrorists why don't you bring up the proud boys? You know, the actual terrorists with actual leadership that tried to start a fascist coup due to ignorant lies that stupid people believed? When you called Antifa terrorists, I stopped reading what you're saying and don't take anything else you said from that point forward seriously in the slightest. It undermines everything else that you say.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

You have no idea what you are talking about. You are defending a group that has a direct, negative impact (by false association) on my people, and are not what you have been fed.You are so astoundingly clueless about the subject that it is clear you speak from what you choose to believe (or again, were fed), not based on real knowledge / experience and you're certainly are unaware of the burden it places on the shoulders of my people. Citing the Proud Boys is not some tit-for-tat debate class exercise, guy. The Antifa parallels to a fictional group is based on their dialogue, which I--unlike you--have heard in reality. Emphasis on reality. The fact that you are playing this uninformed, tit-for-tat bullshit renders anything else you post as nonsense, and completely disrespectful to the true concerns of my people.

 

[Anwar]

Then why do they behave like terrorists?

Same reason the Sons of Liberty did.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You are defending a group that has a direct, negative impact (by false association) on my people,

You're describing the Cultists who attacked the Capitol Building with intent purpose to murder Political Leaders.

And BTW, I'm not white either so you can take your "My People" nonsense and shove it.

 

[Tuskin38]

This is really getting into Neutral Zone territory...

Board members were cheering for / supporting Walker murdering the man?

At least one was.

 

[FreezeC77]

"I'm not going to derail this thread any further" then proceeds to post more about the topic. I have no idea what your experiences are so I'll tell you some about mine.

I've been involved in social inequity protests for nearly 20 years. Shortly after graduating college I met someone at work who was involved in the scene. She is an extremely kind and caring person (much more so than myself), she is also very religious (something I most certainly am not), but I did get inspired to get involved. I've been to a lot of different protests, but the over-reaching theme has always been trying to get equity for a people, group, or segment who was being disenfranchised or attempting to be.

The last year plus has been a real change. Prior to the pandemic (during 2019) I had changed to working from home part-time which I was very thankful to get my employer to agree to. I had and still am caring for someone who needs supervision for medical issues. Those medical issues do involve issues that include being immuno-compromised so I have 'sat out' the protest scene during the entire pandemic.

About two weeks after George Floyd's murder and the ongoing protests my friend was kettled on a hillside and severely maced by police to the point of needing medical attention. Thankfully she has recovered, but I do personally lament not being able to personally be a physical presence at any protests.

I was subsequently very early on in the protests introduced by her to a large nationwide(and some global elements) protest forum/chats/etc... I have over the past 10+ months watched *A LOT* of streaming protest video. From Seattle, Portland, Chicago, NY, LA, Detroit, Louisville, Atlanta, Minneapolis are just a few of the big cities, but there have been protests all over. I was watching streams of Kenosha when I saw an underage kid patrolling with white supremacists shoot multiple people. One of those people I saw shot on stream died from the wounds.

I have seen a lot of chanting, I have seen property damage and I have seen violence. The majority of violence perpetrated has been against protesters by law enforcement. I have grown close to many of the people who participate or who document these events. Some of them I would even say have become friends and I talk to them nearly daily and we know each other by name and talk about our families.

I know people who self-identify as ANTIFA, BLM, or other things.

ANTIFA is a boogeyman for the right. Just like BLM became a boogeyman and cudgel to frighten 'swing voters' after Ferguson and the emergence of BLM. ANTIFA has become another. ANTIFA is not a chaptered/organized entity.

The Proud Boys have 'chapters' in many cities both in America and Canada(where their founder was from). They have 'ranks' and leaders. This is also similar for many of the white supremacist militias and for the Boogaloo anti-government groups. When there was a massive protest in Oakland after George Floyd's murder nearby the protest two federal port authority guards were shot and one died. This was blamed on the Antifa/BLM movement for weeks. Until the assailant was actually caught in Southern California. He had yet another shoot-out this time with police and had improvised bombs. Another law enforcement officer was killed in that exchange.

It turned out the person was not 'Antifa', was not 'BLM'. But was a boogaloo boy affiliated 'libertarian' who was active-duty military on a supply base. It came out this week after shooting those two in Oakland he actually communicated with his 'group' that he shot two feds and the group deleted the chats and covered it up. 4 of those members are now charged with concealing evidence.

Some nights Seattle or Portland would have literally a dozen or more streamers with multiple angles of the events taking place. There are certainly people who took advantage of the events because they just wanted to show up somewhere and cause some damage... But to dismiss the intent and goals because of a few or because of inaccurate misrepresentation of a few is even more damaging.

When the January 6th siege happened there were (and still are) some Republicans spreading a narrative of "Antifa agent provocateurs" who instigated the events. The main suspect used to fuel this was someone named "Activist John" who self-identifies as ANTIFA/BLM. I will tell you a bit about him from what those in the community I've been a part of the past year know. He is black, but was adopted as a child and raised by a white Mormon family moving to Utah after being in Virginia.

His family is VERY right-wing. His brother is active with the white nationalist militia movement. Activist John started showing up at BLM/ANTIFA protests in Utah during the early summer and very quickly wore-out his welcome. He is not accepted as legitimately supporting BLM/ANTIFA. He was asked to leave many events because of his actually disguised right-wing rhetoric (like trying to convince Black people to abandon the Democrats and support Republicans) and encouraging violence.

This is someone who calls themselves ANTIFA. This is someone who was pointed out by the conservative media as ANTIFA and someone who was used to tie ANTIFA to the January 6th capitol siege. Despite MANY OTHER people who may also self-identify as 'antifa' having rejected this person and his ideology. The reason why he can claim to be antifa is because there is no 'grand organization/person' handing out Antifa chapter cards.

In some cities you may indeed find a small group who does describe themselves that way... but the way you just dismiss the discussion about it here as 'being fed talking points' by the media. I am not being fed talking points by the media. I am speaking about personal experiences. I am speaking about people I talk to daily some of whom do consider themselves "ANTIFA or ANTIFA supporters". I am speaking about events I have witnessed through the computer screen filmed by multiple people in multiple cities. Not just 'clips' of events. Watching things unfold for hours nightly.

So yes. I do very much disagree with how you have described ANTIFA and seem to dismiss anyone who tries to argue any points against you with it.

(and yes this is completely 100% off-topic. It is completely Neutral Zone territory post) I avoided replying earlier because I wanted to let this discussion die, but after seeing yet another post by the person stating "Ok I'm done." and then making yet ANOTHER post on the issue I don't care)

 

[UssGlenn]

Not sure why we're trying to tie terrorism to particular ideologies. The techniques are independent of the political goals. You could totally call the WWII French Maquis terrorists, and they were the original Anti-Facists.

I really enjoyed seeing how Bucky was 'freed' - although I always assumed it was something like that - IE someone triggered him with the keywords and said "You're free.." (very much like a similar scene in "The Manchurian Candidate".)

See, I didn't interpret it that way at all. I thought we were witnessing a final test. After Bucky went through his deprogramming therapy (whatever that entailed) she attempted to trigger him and Bucky wasn't sure the therapy had been successful. When he didn't react to the keywords she acknowledged this, saying "You are free".

However your interpretation might be correct and I'm curious about how others saw it.

 

[Timby]

but after seeing yet another post by the person stating "Ok I'm done." and then making yet ANOTHER post on the issue I don't care)

An excellent post, and let's end this derail. Take anything further to PMs or TNZ. Groovy? Groovy.

 

[Xerxes82]

See, I didn't interpret it that way at all. I thought we were witnessing a final test. After Bucky went through his deprogramming therapy (whatever that entailed) she attempted to trigger him and Bucky wasn't sure the therapy had been successful. When he didn't react to the keywords she acknowledged this, saying "You are free".

However your interpretation might be correct and I'm curious about how others saw it.

My take matched yours. Bucky doesn't go into WS "mode" as the words are spoken, but the look on his face clearly shows that he's terrified that he's going to. What we saw looked like the final test of his de-programming. His tears are his dawning recognition, as Ayo continues the activation words, that they aren't kicking in. And her statement of freedom isn't a command that frees him, so much as a reassurance to him at the end that he's not imagining or dreaming this, he has heard the entire WS activation protocol and remained himself.

The scene totally works either way. But I definitely read it that way. Either way, it was a beautiful moment, and I'm glad they put it on screen.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I likewise saw that scene as a final test that Shuri had successfully removed all of the Hydra programming over a long period of time. When Bucky said "it won't work," he meant that he wasn't sure if Shuri's operations had successfully removed that programming and was worried that he would be brainwashed again after Ayo said the code words.

 

[theenglish]

See, I didn't interpret it that way at all. I thought we were witnessing a final test. After Bucky went through his deprogramming therapy (whatever that entailed) she attempted to trigger him and Bucky wasn't sure the therapy had been successful. When he didn't react to the keywords she acknowledged this, saying "You are free".

However your interpretation might be correct and I'm curious about how others saw it.

I thought what you did as well, but both interpretations work.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I want to say that one of the things I appreciate about Falcon and Winter Soldier over WandaVision has been the lack of ridiculous fan theories and expectations.

That said, there is a rumor circulating that the fifth episode will see the debut of a known Marvel character played by a recognizable actor who has not appeared in an MCU production before. Keep your salt shaker handy.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/let-talk-crazy-marvel-cameo-190756985.html

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I'll look at that link after the next episode.

 

[UssGlenn]

I'll look at that link after the next episode.

At the moment, that is the extent of the rumor. No one has revealed who it will be.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Still not going to do it. Wouldn't be prudent.

 

[JD]

I was going to blow it off when I saw it was /Film, but then we got the show writer's comment at the end.
Isn't /Film usually a pretty unreliable source for this kind of stuff?

 

[Turtletrekker]

I was going to blow it off when I saw it was /Film, but then we got the show writer's comment at the end.
Isn't /Film usually a pretty unreliable source for this kind of stuff?

Malcolm Spellman's comments are the only reason I posted it.

 

[Xerxes82]

Malcolm Spellman's comments are the only reason I posted it.

I'm more curious about the actor than I am the character, who from the sounds of things could be almost anybody. I always wonder when I hear things like "well known performer." Well known to whom? It makes me think it'll be somebody I've never heard of. *shakes head* I'll worry about it after we've all had a chance to see the episode.

Oh, and just for wild speculation bingo, put me down for a pre-gamma Dr. Leonard Samson. Maybe with a cryptic line about working with somebody with a bad reaction to super soldier treatments. Simply because it would be fun if somebody at Marvel Studios or Disney would remember Blonsky at some point.