I've never seen Steve Rogers blowing up a building full of innocent people in cold blood, did I miss something?
Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion
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I've never seen Steve Rogers blowing up a building full of innocent people in cold blood, did I miss something?
After watching this week's episode I have to say it is a definite improvement over last week. I am now enjoying the theme of what is a hero and what is a villain and the grey areas in between. We do not have a clear "Big Bad" at this point. The show is written to humanize Zemo and the Flag Smashers.
Finally the idea of the series as to who should hold the shield is coming to the forefront--and the clear winner this week is Sam who demonstrates that he embraces the spirit of what it means to be Captain America even if he doesn't have super soldier serum running through his blood.
Finally the idea of the series as to who should hold the shield is coming to the forefront--and the clear winner this week is Sam who demonstrates that he embraces the spirit of what it means to be Captain America even if he doesn't have super soldier serum running through his blood.
I wonder if the Power Broker will play a more prominent role in the last two episodes or if he will be just set up and used in a later series. Not having read any of the comics, I have no idea what to expect.
It almost felt to me like they started with the image of Walker holding the bloody shield and worked backwards from that. I wasn't familiar with the character before the show but everyone was saying he turns bad in the comics. When they presented him in the show he didn't seem like he was on the road to that yet but in this episode he gets angry, loses his patience, mentions the medals he got weren't exactly for good things he did. I know the show is only 6 episodes but that's longer than a movie. Either set the character up in a way that hints more strongly at his negative points early on or play the long game with him not turning bad until the end of the series and have that set up as something later on down the road in another series. Something like the netflix marvel series did. Have Walker lose his partner at the end of the series, then lose the shield even though he did nothing wrong and then have that as the lead into something. This episode didn't really give him enough time to even debate whether he should take the super soldier serum or not. He just took it off screen.
They can make another one. I think Stormbreaker has the same properties
Stormbreaker does not have the "only the worthy can wield it" spell. Mjolnir didn't get that spell until Odin cast Thor out in his first film. That's why Thanos was able to intercept Stormbreaker during the Endgame battle.
Well, in the original comics Walker's negative points were more apparent right from the start but even then he really put in effort to try and live up to Steve's example. He really DID go nuts after one experience (his parents getting killed by a terrorist group he busted) though, so it wasn't really a slow descent there either.
I will admit that this is a tad rushed, and could've done with 1 more episode of Walker feeling the pressure and not being able to handle it.
But I'm still appreciating that the show went out of its way to make everyone in it 3-Dimensional.
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Innocent?
They were security guards. Rent-a-cops. Whatever shenanigans that may or may not be going on with the GRC is way over their paygrade. So yes, innocent.
Comics-wise, it's a blank slate. There's been two people by that name; the first Curtiss Jackson, a white-collar career criminal who augmented people for a price and for who "profit always comes first", the unnamed second disguised in a powersuit and shooting energy bolts out of their hands. I somehow doubt the MCU will be going with either version, and we may not even see the Power Broker in, or past, this series. Unless Karli decides "I'm as good as dead already, nothing left to lose, might as well try to take the Power Broker with me."
I do agree this show should have had at least 8 episodes. I wonder if Covid forced them to do fewer. I also like how the show doesn't have villains so much but antagonist. I also really like how they didn't make Walker a racist. I feel like a lesser CW type of show would have gone that route. They show him as a soldier trying to do the right thing but he doesn't have that special quality you need to be a superhero. He lost control when his best friend died which is the opposite of how Steve Rogers reacted when he thought Bucky died falling off that train back in his first movie. Jason
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I don't think Walker is really "evil" though. He has a temper, and combined with the super soldier serum it got away from him. He is not an outright villain and his journey is mirroring that of the Flag Smashers. He wants to do good but his pursuit of that goal becomes compromised by his acts of violence.
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
Episode 4: "The Whole World is Watching"
Sam/Falcon: Sam and Bucky's disagreement over the underlying motives of the Flag Smashers shined a light on ideology based on generation and experience; Sam can understand the stated purpose of the group, although he certainly disagrees with their murderous methods, while Bucky warns against who they are, by using the Super-Soldier serum to build an army who believes their will to be the one all others must be made to follow. Of course, Bucky as seen this before (as part of the Winter Soldier program), and knows that no good can come from super-powered anarchists who only see the world in one way.
Sam's "...shield or no shield, the only thing you're running is your mouth" response to Walker...perfect, but Walker has now proven he disrespects Sam by wanting to fight for his assumed authority.
Bucky/Winter Soldier: Bucky was surprised to learn his mechanical arm had a deactivation code. Apparently, the Wakandans had some doubts about their de-programming methods. On that note, flashback to his de-programming was well done--his anguish reinforcing the idea that he's an inherently good man forced to commit evil acts--the very point Steve Rogers attempted to make to Stark.
Bucky's mocking "Looking strong, John" was such a tell to how Walker will try to make Bucky regret that in the near future.
Sharon Carter: Some viewers are still convinced she's the Power Broker--even while helping Sam, tracking Walker, etc. The jury is still out on that theory.
Ayo and Co.: Disney/Marvel must be weighing what to do with all things Wakanda (beyond any Black Panther sequel), since no character has mentioned T'Challa at all.
John Walker / Cap 2.0 & Lemar Hoskins Battlestar: Walker slowly turning into a villain was expected, but we see just what psychological triggers are leading him toward villainy: resentment toward Bucky for being a Super Soldier (i.e. the advantages such a serum gave Barnes), constantly overstepping his "authority" to interfere with a case well over his head, and some self-reflection about the reason behind his decorated status. Despite his introduction as a good guy trying to live up to a larger-than-life image, he is the classic example of one who lived a life with the expectation of entitlement--his way must be the way, on the personal and ideological side. He's the perfect candidate for another megalomaniac of the Red Skull mold.
Of note was his demoralized whining, "..they weren't eve super soldiers", along with Sam's timely look of contempt. Yes, that telegraphed his taking the serum, and as observed by Hoskins (originally discussed by Erskine in The First Avenger), the serum magnifies the essence of what's already in a person, so Walker's ego, murderous rage is the real man.
With Hoskins dead, Walker has no guidepost to pull him back...not that he could be pulled back from murder.
The Flag-Smashers / Dovich / Karli Morgenthau: As Zemo pointed out to Sam about Karli: "you're seeing something in her that isn't there." / "The desire to become a superhuman cannot be separated from asupremacist ideas." Although Bucky countered with the fact Steve did not turn out that way, Zemo--in an obvious dig at Bucky as much as he was describing Karli--reminded hi that there was only one Steve Rogers. Zemo--once again--is not incorrect.
Karli's "That shield is a monument to a bygone era; a reminder of all of the people history left out. That shield should be destroyed." is deep in a one-sided, historically ignorant view; all she knows is that the shield--the man carrying it fought for the greatest good during WW2, and when he reemerged in the modern era, he picked up where he left off, hardly acting as a symbol against government corruption / oppression (particularly in his attempt to destroy Hydra). But, the writers have done their homework, as terrorists (e.g. Antifa) are the first to point fingers and make blanket judgements, yet engage in terror as if they are somehow virtuous. That said, she will undoubtedly use Walker's murder of her friend as a judgement against all that the shield once stood for.
NOTES:
Sarah's "My world doesn't matter to America, so why should I care about its mascot?" reply to Karli builds on a side of the MC/TVU long ignored, and its great to see that inescapable reality finally pour icy water on the overwhelming picture of the MC/TVU as an overdose of energy blasts and superheros on every street corner for more noise. Sam being an Avenger did not change his sister's fortunes, and certainly not the ingrained view so much of the white corporate/social structure has of black people.
After Walker's public execution of a man, and the way the Flag Smashers will likely use that image, I am starting see how Sam will want to restore Steve's legacy...but I feel he will not call himself Captain America.
Also of note is Sam's ever-improving fighting skills, seen in the fight with Ayo's associate, and in how he temporarily took down super-powered Karli and held his own against her companions.
GRADE: A.
Episode 4: "The Whole World is Watching"
Sam/Falcon: Sam and Bucky's disagreement over the underlying motives of the Flag Smashers shined a light on ideology based on generation and experience; Sam can understand the stated purpose of the group, although he certainly disagrees with their murderous methods, while Bucky warns against who they are, by using the Super-Soldier serum to build an army who believes their will to be the one all others must be made to follow. Of course, Bucky as seen this before (as part of the Winter Soldier program), and knows that no good can come from super-powered anarchists who only see the world in one way.
Sam's "...shield or no shield, the only thing you're running is your mouth" response to Walker...perfect, but Walker has now proven he disrespects Sam by wanting to fight for his assumed authority.
Bucky/Winter Soldier: Bucky was surprised to learn his mechanical arm had a deactivation code. Apparently, the Wakandans had some doubts about their de-programming methods. On that note, flashback to his de-programming was well done--his anguish reinforcing the idea that he's an inherently good man forced to commit evil acts--the very point Steve Rogers attempted to make to Stark.
Bucky's mocking "Looking strong, John" was such a tell to how Walker will try to make Bucky regret that in the near future.
Sharon Carter: Some viewers are still convinced she's the Power Broker--even while helping Sam, tracking Walker, etc. The jury is still out on that theory.
Ayo and Co.: Disney/Marvel must be weighing what to do with all things Wakanda (beyond any Black Panther sequel), since no character has mentioned T'Challa at all.
John Walker / Cap 2.0 & Lemar Hoskins Battlestar: Walker slowly turning into a villain was expected, but we see just what psychological triggers are leading him toward villainy: resentment toward Bucky for being a Super Soldier (i.e. the advantages such a serum gave Barnes), constantly overstepping his "authority" to interfere with a case well over his head, and some self-reflection about the reason behind his decorated status. Despite his introduction as a good guy trying to live up to a larger-than-life image, he is the classic example of one who lived a life with the expectation of entitlement--his way must be the way, on the personal and ideological side. He's the perfect candidate for another megalomaniac of the Red Skull mold.
Of note was his demoralized whining, "..they weren't eve super soldiers", along with Sam's timely look of contempt. Yes, that telegraphed his taking the serum, and as observed by Hoskins (originally discussed by Erskine in The First Avenger), the serum magnifies the essence of what's already in a person, so Walker's ego, murderous rage is the real man.
With Hoskins dead, Walker has no guidepost to pull him back...not that he could be pulled back from murder.
The Flag-Smashers / Dovich / Karli Morgenthau: As Zemo pointed out to Sam about Karli: "you're seeing something in her that isn't there." / "The desire to become a superhuman cannot be separated from asupremacist ideas." Although Bucky countered with the fact Steve did not turn out that way, Zemo--in an obvious dig at Bucky as much as he was describing Karli--reminded hi that there was only one Steve Rogers. Zemo--once again--is not incorrect.
Karli's "That shield is a monument to a bygone era; a reminder of all of the people history left out. That shield should be destroyed." is deep in a one-sided, historically ignorant view; all she knows is that the shield--the man carrying it fought for the greatest good during WW2, and when he reemerged in the modern era, he picked up where he left off, hardly acting as a symbol against government corruption / oppression (particularly in his attempt to destroy Hydra). But, the writers have done their homework, as terrorists (e.g. Antifa) are the first to point fingers and make blanket judgements, yet engage in terror as if they are somehow virtuous. That said, she will undoubtedly use Walker's murder of her friend as a judgement against all that the shield once stood for.
NOTES:
Sarah's "My world doesn't matter to America, so why should I care about its mascot?" reply to Karli builds on a side of the MC/TVU long ignored, and its great to see that inescapable reality finally pour icy water on the overwhelming picture of the MC/TVU as an overdose of energy blasts and superheros on every street corner for more noise. Sam being an Avenger did not change his sister's fortunes, and certainly not the ingrained view so much of the white corporate/social structure has of black people.
After Walker's public execution of a man, and the way the Flag Smashers will likely use that image, I am starting see how Sam will want to restore Steve's legacy...but I feel he will not call himself Captain America.
Also of note is Sam's ever-improving fighting skills, seen in the fight with Ayo's associate, and in how he temporarily took down super-powered Karli and held his own against her companions.
GRADE: A.
Antifa aren't terrorists....
I mean heck, by that logic shouldn't the Founding Fathers and the other Revolutionaries be considered terrorists?
One person's terrorist is another persons' revolutionary/freedom fighter.
Really, what was scary was the look on Walker's face when he saw everyone taping him. He wasn't upset, he wasn't sad. His face basically said "Yeah, you all saw that. Tape it for all I care. This happened, this is me."
You could also see it as him telling Sam and Bucky "You kept thinking I was the Bad Guy? Fine, you win...I'll be the bad guy."
I mean heck, by that logic shouldn't the Founding Fathers and the other Revolutionaries be considered terrorists?
One person's terrorist is another persons' revolutionary/freedom fighter.
Really, what was scary was the look on Walker's face when he saw everyone taping him. He wasn't upset, he wasn't sad. His face basically said "Yeah, you all saw that. Tape it for all I care. This happened, this is me."
You could also see it as him telling Sam and Bucky "You kept thinking I was the Bad Guy? Fine, you win...I'll be the bad guy."
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Antifa are not terrorists. Captain America was antifa. The "fa" are the terrorists. If you're anti -Antifa, well as my math teacher used to tell me, reduce your fraction.
Considering this show was originally suppose to begin airing last August and was mostly done filming before quarantine procedures and the fact that Chadwick Boseman died in the same month, you're jumping to conclusions based on nothing. Besides, the whole reason Ayo was there was because of how Zemo killed T'Chaka so it's not that surprising T'Challa hasn't been name checked. As for why he may not have gone to deal with it himself, I imagine he reflected on how he behaved the last time he chased Zemo and decided it was better to send someone else.
Nope, not even close. Antifa is short for antifascists and the only way you think Antifa is a terrorist organization is if you've been consuming too much extreme far right propaganda.
Wow...Great episode.
I really enjoyed seeing how Bucky was 'freed' - although I always assumed it was something like that - IE someone triggered him with the keywords and said "You're free.." (very much like a similar scene in "The Manchurian Candidate".)
I also love that they are not making Zemo a villain caricature in that he HATES Super Soldiers and the serum that makes them, so he had no thought of using the serum on himself; he just wanted it destroyed - and did that ASAP. I like that they are staying true to their version of the character and his motivations. Yes, he's definitely a sociopath pushed over the edge because of what happened to his family in "Age Of Ultron"; but no he's no just a mustache twirling bad guy. He has a warped sense of morality but he's true to that. So yeah, I give kudos to the writing staff for not going with the "and now he's a bona-fide Supervillain route. (In fact all the 'villains' are well done. Their motivations are grounded and believable.)
Also, while we all knew once John Walker found the undestroyed vial he's ultimately use it on himself. And after loosing badly to the Wakandan royal guard, it looks like he just took the risk and assumed he just heeded to inject himself and he did. I thought of course he'd do it AFTER Battlestar/Hoskins was killed, but yeah, the fact he did it after loosing a fight to two well trained 'normals' just shows how desperate/unstable he truly is. But yeah, that fits his character to a T. The scene where he kills the Flag Smasher in front of a crowd (which he knew was there) just underscores how damaged a soldier he is. It scares me a bit that some posters in this thread seemed to not have an issue with that action and were cheering for him; but for me that scene was chilling in that, no, he should have captured and interrogated the Flag Smasher and turned him over for trial. Yes, said Flag Smasher is a terrorist and guilty and should pay for his crimes - but in this situation, as Battlestar's death was in the heat of combat (IE - I don't think Battlestar was targeted for death during the fight); Walker's reaction was over the top here - and it'll be interesting to see if they show the U.S. government supporting/calling the action justified, of whether they reprimand Walker/strip him of the 'honor' of being "Captain America".
But yeah, I have to say, I like that the writer's aren't shying away from going all out here and not pulling punches with respect to the story or the characters. Nothing felt forced because of 'needs of the plot'. Battlestar's death was a result of him being overmatched, but believing he could handle it because hey, Sam Wilson's also just a 'regular guy' who's survived fights with Super Soldiers and god-like entities, so yeah - Hoskins felt he was up to the task too.
Looking forward to see how they play all this out, but a great job so far.
I really enjoyed seeing how Bucky was 'freed' - although I always assumed it was something like that - IE someone triggered him with the keywords and said "You're free.." (very much like a similar scene in "The Manchurian Candidate".)
I also love that they are not making Zemo a villain caricature in that he HATES Super Soldiers and the serum that makes them, so he had no thought of using the serum on himself; he just wanted it destroyed - and did that ASAP. I like that they are staying true to their version of the character and his motivations. Yes, he's definitely a sociopath pushed over the edge because of what happened to his family in "Age Of Ultron"; but no he's no just a mustache twirling bad guy. He has a warped sense of morality but he's true to that. So yeah, I give kudos to the writing staff for not going with the "and now he's a bona-fide Supervillain route. (In fact all the 'villains' are well done. Their motivations are grounded and believable.)
Also, while we all knew once John Walker found the undestroyed vial he's ultimately use it on himself. And after loosing badly to the Wakandan royal guard, it looks like he just took the risk and assumed he just heeded to inject himself and he did. I thought of course he'd do it AFTER Battlestar/Hoskins was killed, but yeah, the fact he did it after loosing a fight to two well trained 'normals' just shows how desperate/unstable he truly is. But yeah, that fits his character to a T. The scene where he kills the Flag Smasher in front of a crowd (which he knew was there) just underscores how damaged a soldier he is. It scares me a bit that some posters in this thread seemed to not have an issue with that action and were cheering for him; but for me that scene was chilling in that, no, he should have captured and interrogated the Flag Smasher and turned him over for trial. Yes, said Flag Smasher is a terrorist and guilty and should pay for his crimes - but in this situation, as Battlestar's death was in the heat of combat (IE - I don't think Battlestar was targeted for death during the fight); Walker's reaction was over the top here - and it'll be interesting to see if they show the U.S. government supporting/calling the action justified, of whether they reprimand Walker/strip him of the 'honor' of being "Captain America".
But yeah, I have to say, I like that the writer's aren't shying away from going all out here and not pulling punches with respect to the story or the characters. Nothing felt forced because of 'needs of the plot'. Battlestar's death was a result of him being overmatched, but believing he could handle it because hey, Sam Wilson's also just a 'regular guy' who's survived fights with Super Soldiers and god-like entities, so yeah - Hoskins felt he was up to the task too.
Looking forward to see how they play all this out, but a great job so far.
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Completely agree, but I also think its a good conversation to be having. Karli without powers was likely Antifa, meaning against fascists and military governments. I see Walker as definitely pro-military, not necessarily fascist (I doubt he's thought it through) but seeing the military as a kind of personal solution for his life and lack of self-esteme. Both are/are becoming extremists.
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