How easy is it actually to reverse engineer a UFO?

[Asbo Zaprudder]

You probably couldn't even build one with vacuum tubes... Totally different technical approach involved,

Soon it might be possible to use vacuum-channel transistors that can switch at several hundred gigahertz, an order of magnitude faster than field effect transistors (FETs) and comparable with graphene transistors.

The vacuum tube strikes back: NASA's tiny 460GHz vacuum transistor that could one day replace silicon FETs - ExtremeTech
Nanoscale vacuum-channel transistor

In fact, vacuum-channel transistors do not need to contain a vacuum. An inert gas such as helium is usually used. The gap between source and drain is so narrow that collisions of electrons with gas molecules are very infrequent even at atmospheric pressure*. Electrons can traverse the gap much faster than a gate electrode on an FET (the velocity of electrons is limited to about 1.4×10^9 m/s in silicon compared with 3x10^10 m/s in a vacuum). I believe the main technical problem to be overcome is degradation of the source electrode over time.

*The mean free path of an electron in air at standard temperature and pressure is 6.8x10^-7m or 680 nanometres - much larger than a nanometre-scale gap. The mean free path in helium should be about twice this value as the kinetic diameter of a helium atom is about 0.7 that of a nitrogen or oxygen molecule.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

At least the Pakled only kidnap members of other species to make things that make them go, they don't kill other aliens and steal their stuff or assimilate them into the collective and steal their stuff.

SPOILERS for Lower Decks:

Spoiler

The season one finale "No Small Parts" of Lower Decks contradicts your post.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

SPOILERS for Lower Decks:

Spoiler

The season one finale "No Small Parts" of Lower Decks contradicts your post.

Possibly so - I don't watch either Discovery or Lower Decks for reasons I won't go into.

 

[Santaman]

You probably couldn't even build one with vacuum tubes... Totally different technical approach involved.

However, just going for conventional transistors/resistors/capacitors (etc.) - let's just say, it wouldn't be very comfortable to hold...

Mig25's entire avionics including its radar is vacuum tube based, it serves a purpose, the damn thing will shrug off an EMP blast as if nothing ever happened and it can be repaired with a pair of pliers and a fork, also with 600 Kilowatts the thing burns right through jamming signals
Old 60's tech put a man on the moon, not every computer has to be capable of posting your oh so perfect life on Stalkbook, industrial computers, military computers etc are built for a single purpose and it is much easier to desolder and resolder a few transistors than to try and repair chip based tech.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Subminiature vacuum tubes were widely available from the 1920s before the transistor age and could even run off batteries.

John Eng's Dead Tech Rescue - Subminature Tubes (google.com)

Tubes (or valves in UK English) are still used in certain synthesizers and hi-fi amplifiers, which are desired by aficionados of such. So they're not completely obsolete yet and nanoscale ones would have very desirable properties.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Apropos unusual electronic devices - when are we going to see memristors widely applied, or is this unlikely for some reason? I'm wondering if there are potential applications in neural network emulation circuits. I believe some work has been done in this area. Another potential use case is implementing analogue memories for superconducting quantum computers.

Memristor - Wikipedia

 

[Swedish Borg]

Apropos unusual electronic devices - when are we going to see memristors widely applied, or is this unlikely for some reason? I'm wondering if there are potential applications in neural network emulation circuits. I believe some work has been done in this area. Another potential use case is implementing analogue memories for superconducting quantum computers.

Memristor - Wikipedia

So far superconduction can only be achieved at temperatures close to absolute zero.

 

[Tim Walker]

Kludge as defined by Technopedia:

"A kludge is generally defined as a poorly set up system with mismatched parts and elements, a clumsy construction that might work but does not work particularly well."

I recall a discussion regarding reverse engineering in Babylon 5. That, basically, after determining the purpose of an alien machine, and how it functioned in a general way, your first attempt at duplication would result in a kludge.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So far superconduction can only be achieved at temperatures close to absolute zero.

Prior to the recent discovery of materials that superconduct at very high pressure at or close to room temperature, the barrier was actually 133K, very cold but still no longer "close to" absolute zero [https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02895-0].

edit - I'm not sure why the Nature article here didn't mention BSCCO, cited by @Asbo Zaprudder in the following post.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

So far superconduction can only be achieved at temperatures close to absolute zero.

Not so - the highest temperature practical superconductor known is Bismuth strontium calcium copper oxide (BSCCO) with a critical transition temperature Tc of 110K (-163°C). There's also yttrium barium copper oxide (YBCO) and a mercury/barium/calcium cuprate with a Tc of 92K and 138K respectively. Above that temperature, superconductivity has only been observed in materials subject to high pressures. The first "room-temperature" superconductor discovered in 2020 was a carbonaceous sulfur hydride with a Tc of 287K but it requires a pressure of 267GPa so it's far from what one might call practical. Superconductivity in various materials at the boiling point of liquid nitrogen at 77K is well demonstrated. Quite a bit removed from absolute zero and much easier to achieve.

High-temperature Superconductors | Physics (lumenlearning.com)
Intro to high-temperature superconductors - MagLab (nationalmaglab.org)

 

[StarCruiser]

Anywho - I wasn't in anyway trying to insult Vacuum Tubes. I am quite aware of their qualities, and yep - they pretty laugh at EMP (anything CMOS based...toast).

I'm just saying that cell phone technology would probably be beyond classic Vacuum Tubes. I'm not saying the newer approaches trying to sort of combine Vacuum Tube (like) tech with modern digital design couldn't manage it though. They very well might... There's enormous potential in that arena.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

It is possible to build a general purpose computing machine out of thermionic tubes and ferrite core memory so an emulation of modern mobile phone circuitry would also be possible. However, it would likely be enormous and use a lot of power if the smallest available tubes were those of the sort from before the transistor age. The main problem would be that its switching speed would be far too slow to do the necessary modulation, demodulation, error correction, encryption, and decryption in real time.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Not so - the highest temperature practical superconductor known is Bismuth strontium calcium copper oxide (BSCCO) with a critical transition temperature Tc of 110K (-163°C). There's also yttrium barium copper oxide (YBCO) and a mercury/barium/calcium cuprate with a Tc of 92K and 138K respectively. Above that temperature, superconductivity has only been observed in materials subject to high pressures. The first "room-temperature" superconductor discovered in 2020 was a carbonaceous sulfur hydride with a Tc of 287K but it requires a pressure of 267GPa so it's far from what one might call practical. Superconductivity in various materials at the boiling point of liquid nitrogen at 77K is well demonstrated. Quite a bit removed from absolute zero and much easier to achieve.

High-temperature Superconductors | Physics (lumenlearning.com)
Intro to high-temperature superconductors - MagLab (nationalmaglab.org)

Well, I agree, it's not absolute zero but it's still very cold and not very practical or extremely high pressure which poses a slew of other problems.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Well, I agree, it's not absolute zero but it's still very cold and not very practical or extremely high pressure which poses a slew of other problems.

It's not suitable for domestic applications but liquid nitrogen (LN2) temperatures are readily attainable and practical in industrial, laboratory, and other facilities with suitably trained technicians. I used to use LN2 all the time in a previous career. That was over 40 years ago and I didn't work in a cryogenics lab. Whether we'll ever attain room-temperature superconductors at atmospheric pressure (101kPa) rather than over 2 million atmospheres I can't foresee. I doubt it'll be in my lifetime but I hope to be proved wrong. Attaining superconductivity at the sublimation temperature of solid CO2 (194.7 K, dry ice) at atmospheric pressure would be a significant intermediate advancement.

 

[Tim Walker]

Now, to me, the factor of reverse engineering a thing is how far ahead is it of where we are right now! If the part is say, a 100 years further along, there's a good chance that we would be able to manufacture or build something to manufacture it. Now, say said ship is a 1000 years ahead of us?

If one hundred years more advanced, perhaps we could build a kludge that could recreate-however poorly-the function of the machine.

One thousand years? Not for a very long time.

 

[Swedish Borg]

If one hundred years more advanced, perhaps we could build a kludge that could recreate-however poorly-the function of the machine.

One thousand years? Not for a very long time.

advanced machines, means advanced theories, advanced machine-making techniques, advanced experience, advanced skills, or which we know nothing!!! All we have are the machines.

 

[Tim Walker]

If (as suggested for nanotechnology) we could engineer at the atomic level, could we copy functioning machines without knowing exactly how they work?

 

[dupersuper]

If (as suggested for nanotechnology) we could engineer at the atomic level, could we copy functioning machines without knowing exactly how they work?

Should we even if we could?

 

[Swedish Borg]

If (as suggested for nanotechnology) we could engineer at the atomic level, could we copy functioning machines without knowing exactly how they work?

Well, we do that with programs with some success so why not with matter. Say you have a working vacuum cleaner but you don't know exactly it works, so you make a molecular recording of it and each time it breaks down, you dump it and make a new copy. The only thing you'd need to keep in perfect working order would be the copier.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The problem with nanoassembly are electrostatic repulsion (basically chemistry) and stochastic bombardment by molecules (basically physics). Things tend not to stay long in the place you leave them unless anchored and Van der Waals forces tend to twist them out of shape or react them with other molecules. The nanomachines used by life cope with these factors after billions of years of trial and error through evolution and we'd have to learn how to do the same.