Yeah, Verad was likely forgotten after a short time. Probably because the joining was so brief... it didn't fully hold.
My DS9 Rewatch Odyssey
- Thread starter ananta
- Start date
I'd forgotten about Verad.
What a treat to watch Odo channel the flamboyant Curzon -!
And, satisfying to see Rom lash out at Quark for sabotaging Nog's exam.
One line that stuck in my mind--previous host “Lela” says to Jadzia: "what is a person but the sum of their memories?" Made me wonder how accurate that is...
What a treat to watch Odo channel the flamboyant Curzon -!
And, satisfying to see Rom lash out at Quark for sabotaging Nog's exam.
One line that stuck in my mind--previous host “Lela” says to Jadzia: "what is a person but the sum of their memories?" Made me wonder how accurate that is...
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It's completely inaccurate even according to Star Trek. At one point Will and Tom Riker had the exact same sum of memories yet they were two different persons, each completely unaware of the existence of the other. So the memories are only part of what makes a person.
They had the exact sum... until Nervala IV. Then they had new experiences in those 8 years, and therefore new memories.
8 years is a long time. The isolation of Tom very likely kept him from really growing the way Will did.
So I still think Lela's statement rings true.
8 years is a long time. The isolation of Tom very likely kept him from really growing the way Will did.
So I still think Lela's statement rings true.
You're missing the point. They were two different people, the instant they appeared. Two different people unaware that the other one existed. That's what being two people means.
If an exact copy of you is created this instant without your knowledge it will be a different person. If something happens to that person, if he gets wounded or killed, you won't feel a thing. You won't even know it happened. That's two people!
If one of the Rikers was killed one minute after the incident the other one would never even have known it happened.
I never thought about “Distant Voices” actually, but, yes, a similar idea. I found the scene in TNG’s “Frame of Mind” where Riker is interacting with the characters who represented different aspects of his psyche (Troi, Picard and Worf, if I recall) represented voice dialogue even more so. I love that scene (and episode).
Thanks Kkt. I hadn’t actually, but if I ever get to the end maybe I could pop them up on a blog or something for ease of reference, although I feel the comments on here really contribute so much to my initial comments.
Yeah, it is exaggerated somewhat. I mean, we learned in “Equilibrium” that Joran happened to kill a couple of people (?) but he wasn’t some crazed demon who killed everyone in sight all the time. I guess it’s possible the zhian’tara destabilised that already unstable sub-personality and magnified his psychotic tendencies?
I didn't miss your point. They are two different people because of what happened to them. Of course neither knew about the other until 8 years later.
The second that Tom materialized, he started his life on the planet, marooned as far as he knew. That will already have an impact on someone. His life was pretty dismal, with no hope basically. Will Riker, on the other hand, got promoted, had a good career, and had a good life, so he therefore became a different person.
They each start their own experiences during that beamout, and new memories occur. Tom very likely got depressed many times, and being without contact with anyone for years will have all sorts of effects on people. (I am speaking from experience on this one. I have been working overrnight for the better part of 9 years. My patience for people and my general ability to put up with bs has gone down considerably, and a lot of it is due to not really being around people at all in that time.)
The second that Tom materialized, he started his life on the planet, marooned as far as he knew. That will already have an impact on someone. His life was pretty dismal, with no hope basically. Will Riker, on the other hand, got promoted, had a good career, and had a good life, so he therefore became a different person.
They each start their own experiences during that beamout, and new memories occur. Tom very likely got depressed many times, and being without contact with anyone for years will have all sorts of effects on people. (I am speaking from experience on this one. I have been working overrnight for the better part of 9 years. My patience for people and my general ability to put up with bs has gone down considerably, and a lot of it is due to not really being around people at all in that time.)
I love "Frame of Mind"! That and "The Pegasus" are probably my two favorite Riker episodes.
“THE ADVERSARY”
We’re going through Change(ling)s!
And so we come to the end of the third season, which I definitely think is DS9’s strongest and fullest season to this point. As many will know, the writers had planned an entirely different season finale—what would eventually become the “Home Front”/“Paradise Lost” two-parter next season. Alas, concerns about the show’s ratings led to a largely self-contained finale which would enable the fourth season to begin with a clearer canvas.
I actually like that DS9 managed to avoid what had become a tradition on TNG and TV in general at that point: specifically, ending the season with the first of a two-parter; the second part of which invariably prove weaker than the first, often starting the new season on something of a bum note. DS9’s season finales worked better for me. They usually served as a kind of book-end to the season, dealing with themes and storylines that had been laid out across the year, while foreshadowing the season to come. They did often contain loose cliff-hangers, but ones that didn’t necessitate immediate follow-up (hence, the season premieres the following year were often set weeks or months afterward rather than having to pick up the action where it left off). Seasons two and three both end with a sense of drama and anticipation by virtue of their ominous closing lines. In “The Jem’Hadar”, we had Sisko vowing to be ready for the Dominion should they come through the wormhole, and “The Adversary” ends with an absolute killer of a closing line: “The Changeling...before he died, he whispered something to me. He said: ‘You’re too late—we’re everywhere.’”
I found “The Adversary” a strong and satisfying finale, although it’s not without flaws, which I’m going to get out of the way first. Unfortunately, I have a fairly big issue with Sisko heading off on the Defiant with all his senior staff to a situation that could easily escalate into war—WITHOUT consulting Starfleet Command whatsoever. I mean, really? The entire mission is initiated by an Ambassador we’ve never even heard of before (although his voice is mightily familiar...! I’m a bit perplexed the producers re-cast Lawrence Pressman so soon after he played Ghemor in “Second Skin”, especially given how distinctive his voice is). Sisko takes Krajensky’s word for everything, doesn’t check anything himself, much less discuss the mission with his superiors before leaving. Given the delicacy of the mission, that’s unforgivable, Ben! If I were at Starfleet Command I’d be demoting you back to Commander, I’m afraid! Of course, I guess you could suppose that maybe Sisko did speak with Starfleet Command and his transmission was somehow intercepted by the Founders, who impersonated an Admiral. But that should really have been addressed in the script; just a line or two would have sufficed.
While I’m complaining, I find it really strains credulity that we have the entire senior staff aboard the Defiant. The Starfleet officers I can buy, but Kira and Odo have no business being aboard the Defiant; particularly on a mission that has nothing directly to do with Bajor. But, of course, the story required at least Odo on board, and Nana Visitor may well have been pissed if she’d only had a Quark-esque cameo at the start of the episode. I also felt the sudden, abrupt introduce of the Tzenkethi worked to the episode’s detriment. Supposedly they’re a major threat to the Federation yet they hadn’t even been mentioned in three decades of Star Trek—and we never do actually see them, which feels like a bit of a cheat. I wonder if it might have worked better had the episode featured another aggressive race we’d at least heard of, such as the Tholians.
I also have to say, the Founders also took a quite gamble having all the crew aboard, determined as they were to regain control of the ship, when they could simply have stolen the Defiant ala Tom Riker and had the Jem’Hadar pilot it to Tzenkethi. Yet, the plan shows just how utterly Machiavellian the Dominion is. Why use brute force and decimate their own resources when they can cripple their enemies by manipulating them into going to war with other rivals? We see the Dominion use such tactics time and again; most recently in the superb “The Die is Cast”. It’s not so much what the Dominion does that makes them such fascinating villains, but the way they do it.
The basic thrust of the plot is very much inspired by John Carpenter’s “The Thing” and, on the whole, it works very well. Admittedly, I felt Alexander Singer’s directing wasn’t quite as tight as it could have been, but he does cultivate a suitable sense of tension and claustrophobia (thanks in part to the rather limited Defiant sets—I don’t think this would have worked nearly as well had it been set on the spacious Enterprise-D). The paranoia that brews as the crew pair up to hunt down the Changeling is nicely unnerving and disorienting. Highlights of the episode include the shocking reveal of Krajensky as a Changeling (I love the look on Dax’s face as she looks up from her tricorder) and the blood test scene is excellent, and sees poor Eddington falsely incriminated. Interestingly, although Eddington is on our side here, I find there’s something inherently smug and untrustworthy about the guy. I wasn’t sure where the writers were going with the character at this point, but I knew he wasn’t to be trusted.
The inevitable confrontation between Odo and the Founder culminates in a real “oh shit” moment, with Odo becoming the first Changeling to earn the dubious honour of having harmed another. It’s a suitably dramatic, wrenching finale, and although the morphing CGI is a little variable in quality, the Changeling’s demise, dissolving into a pile of charcoal, is memorable and novel. Again, this leads to the closing scene in the wardroom and Odo’s ominous warning about the Founders, which will have ramifications throughout the rest of the series. Overall, this is a taut and effective little episode. I wouldn’t say it’s among the show’s greatest finales and it’s not without some plot holes, but definitely a solid effort. I’m going to take a break for a few days as I’m pretty tired right now, but I can’t wait to dive into season four, which, if memory serves, certainly ranks among Trek’s altogether best seasons. Rating: 8
Incidentally, there’s an episode in Futurama’s final season called “Murder on the Planet Express” that’s remarkably similar to “The Adversary”. It also features a murderous shapechanger on the loose on the ship, and the crew becoming ever more paranoid of each other. If I recall, there’s even a scene where the shapechanger is ‘unmasked’ and it shoots through an air vent, much as the Krajensky/changeling does here.
We’re going through Change(ling)s!
And so we come to the end of the third season, which I definitely think is DS9’s strongest and fullest season to this point. As many will know, the writers had planned an entirely different season finale—what would eventually become the “Home Front”/“Paradise Lost” two-parter next season. Alas, concerns about the show’s ratings led to a largely self-contained finale which would enable the fourth season to begin with a clearer canvas.
I actually like that DS9 managed to avoid what had become a tradition on TNG and TV in general at that point: specifically, ending the season with the first of a two-parter; the second part of which invariably prove weaker than the first, often starting the new season on something of a bum note. DS9’s season finales worked better for me. They usually served as a kind of book-end to the season, dealing with themes and storylines that had been laid out across the year, while foreshadowing the season to come. They did often contain loose cliff-hangers, but ones that didn’t necessitate immediate follow-up (hence, the season premieres the following year were often set weeks or months afterward rather than having to pick up the action where it left off). Seasons two and three both end with a sense of drama and anticipation by virtue of their ominous closing lines. In “The Jem’Hadar”, we had Sisko vowing to be ready for the Dominion should they come through the wormhole, and “The Adversary” ends with an absolute killer of a closing line: “The Changeling...before he died, he whispered something to me. He said: ‘You’re too late—we’re everywhere.’”
I found “The Adversary” a strong and satisfying finale, although it’s not without flaws, which I’m going to get out of the way first. Unfortunately, I have a fairly big issue with Sisko heading off on the Defiant with all his senior staff to a situation that could easily escalate into war—WITHOUT consulting Starfleet Command whatsoever. I mean, really? The entire mission is initiated by an Ambassador we’ve never even heard of before (although his voice is mightily familiar...! I’m a bit perplexed the producers re-cast Lawrence Pressman so soon after he played Ghemor in “Second Skin”, especially given how distinctive his voice is). Sisko takes Krajensky’s word for everything, doesn’t check anything himself, much less discuss the mission with his superiors before leaving. Given the delicacy of the mission, that’s unforgivable, Ben! If I were at Starfleet Command I’d be demoting you back to Commander, I’m afraid! Of course, I guess you could suppose that maybe Sisko did speak with Starfleet Command and his transmission was somehow intercepted by the Founders, who impersonated an Admiral. But that should really have been addressed in the script; just a line or two would have sufficed.
While I’m complaining, I find it really strains credulity that we have the entire senior staff aboard the Defiant. The Starfleet officers I can buy, but Kira and Odo have no business being aboard the Defiant; particularly on a mission that has nothing directly to do with Bajor. But, of course, the story required at least Odo on board, and Nana Visitor may well have been pissed if she’d only had a Quark-esque cameo at the start of the episode. I also felt the sudden, abrupt introduce of the Tzenkethi worked to the episode’s detriment. Supposedly they’re a major threat to the Federation yet they hadn’t even been mentioned in three decades of Star Trek—and we never do actually see them, which feels like a bit of a cheat. I wonder if it might have worked better had the episode featured another aggressive race we’d at least heard of, such as the Tholians.
I also have to say, the Founders also took a quite gamble having all the crew aboard, determined as they were to regain control of the ship, when they could simply have stolen the Defiant ala Tom Riker and had the Jem’Hadar pilot it to Tzenkethi. Yet, the plan shows just how utterly Machiavellian the Dominion is. Why use brute force and decimate their own resources when they can cripple their enemies by manipulating them into going to war with other rivals? We see the Dominion use such tactics time and again; most recently in the superb “The Die is Cast”. It’s not so much what the Dominion does that makes them such fascinating villains, but the way they do it.
The basic thrust of the plot is very much inspired by John Carpenter’s “The Thing” and, on the whole, it works very well. Admittedly, I felt Alexander Singer’s directing wasn’t quite as tight as it could have been, but he does cultivate a suitable sense of tension and claustrophobia (thanks in part to the rather limited Defiant sets—I don’t think this would have worked nearly as well had it been set on the spacious Enterprise-D). The paranoia that brews as the crew pair up to hunt down the Changeling is nicely unnerving and disorienting. Highlights of the episode include the shocking reveal of Krajensky as a Changeling (I love the look on Dax’s face as she looks up from her tricorder) and the blood test scene is excellent, and sees poor Eddington falsely incriminated. Interestingly, although Eddington is on our side here, I find there’s something inherently smug and untrustworthy about the guy. I wasn’t sure where the writers were going with the character at this point, but I knew he wasn’t to be trusted.
The inevitable confrontation between Odo and the Founder culminates in a real “oh shit” moment, with Odo becoming the first Changeling to earn the dubious honour of having harmed another. It’s a suitably dramatic, wrenching finale, and although the morphing CGI is a little variable in quality, the Changeling’s demise, dissolving into a pile of charcoal, is memorable and novel. Again, this leads to the closing scene in the wardroom and Odo’s ominous warning about the Founders, which will have ramifications throughout the rest of the series. Overall, this is a taut and effective little episode. I wouldn’t say it’s among the show’s greatest finales and it’s not without some plot holes, but definitely a solid effort. I’m going to take a break for a few days as I’m pretty tired right now, but I can’t wait to dive into season four, which, if memory serves, certainly ranks among Trek’s altogether best seasons. Rating: 8
Incidentally, there’s an episode in Futurama’s final season called “Murder on the Planet Express” that’s remarkably similar to “The Adversary”. It also features a murderous shapechanger on the loose on the ship, and the crew becoming ever more paranoid of each other. If I recall, there’s even a scene where the shapechanger is ‘unmasked’ and it shoots through an air vent, much as the Krajensky/changeling does here.
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Another fine review, always so much background info I didn't know. Thanks.
“Adversary” reminds me of the salt vampire from TOS, the changeling impersonating one crew member after another - though the stakes are higher here. There’s a stark contrast from the warmth and camaraderie of the Captain’s promotion party, to the spread of distrust and paranoia.
The scene with Bashir switching the two blood test tubes, his and Eddington’s -wonder if it’s believable that no one noticed-- Sisko is looking right at him.
An exciting, foreboding season finale, very intense.
“Adversary” reminds me of the salt vampire from TOS, the changeling impersonating one crew member after another - though the stakes are higher here. There’s a stark contrast from the warmth and camaraderie of the Captain’s promotion party, to the spread of distrust and paranoia.
The scene with Bashir switching the two blood test tubes, his and Eddington’s -wonder if it’s believable that no one noticed-- Sisko is looking right at him.
An exciting, foreboding season finale, very intense.
No, you still don't get my point. They aren't two different people because of what happened to them later. They are two different people because what one experiences the other doesn't.
If one creates a perfect copy of you. It will still not be you. If you are killed, that copy won't know it and will continue to live and vice versa if that copy is killed you won't know it and this regardless of how much time has elapsed between the creation of that copy and his or your destruction. That's why I say that a person is much more than the sum of his or her memories. If a million copies are created with the exact same memories, it will result in a million DIFFERENT individuals. It doesn't matter if it's eight years or one microsecond, it's still two people.
Jake Sisko is 18 ! and he's only allowed one sip of champagne!!! Wow! That's harsh!
I get that they are two different people. I never said otherwise.
I am disagreeing with you about the memory bit. We may not be entirely the sum of our memories, but a massive enough chunk of it that you might as well say it's true.
Think of it this way... you get into an accident that causes brain damage, and you wake up days or weeks later with almost no memory of your childhood, job, family, friends, loved ones, or your life. You are essentially a different person at that point because all the things that shaped you have essentially been erased.
I am disagreeing with you about the memory bit. We may not be entirely the sum of our memories, but a massive enough chunk of it that you might as well say it's true.
Think of it this way... you get into an accident that causes brain damage, and you wake up days or weeks later with almost no memory of your childhood, job, family, friends, loved ones, or your life. You are essentially a different person at that point because all the things that shaped you have essentially been erased.
I disagree because you could as well say that the person you were a year ago is dead and a new one is born YOU. You don't remember all the things you knew a year ago and you now know a slew of things that you didn't know last year. Does it mean that you are a different person? Which would mean BTW that you don't need to fear death since you've died dozens of times already.
“THE ADVERSARY”
We’re going through Change(ling)s!
And so we come to the end of the third season, which I definitely think is DS9’s strongest and fullest season to this point. As many will know, the writers had planned an entirely different season finale—what would eventually become the “Home Front”/“Paradise Lost” two-parter next season. Alas, concerns about the show’s ratings led to a largely self-contained finale which would enable the fourth season to begin with a clearer canvas.
I actually like that DS9 managed to avoid what had become a tradition on TNG and TV in general at that point: specifically, ending the season with the first of a two-parter; the second part of which invariably prove weaker than the first, often starting the new season on something of a bum note. DS9’s season finales worked better for me. They usually served as a kind of book-end to the season, dealing with themes and storylines that had been laid out across the year, while foreshadowing the season to come. They did often contain loose cliff-hangers, but ones that didn’t necessitate immediate follow-up (hence, the season premieres the following year were often set weeks or months afterward rather than having to pick up the action where it left off). Seasons two and three both end with a sense of drama and anticipation by virtue of their ominous closing lines. In “The Jem’Hadar”, we had Sisko vowing to be ready for the Dominion should they come through the wormhole, and “The Adversary” ends with an absolute killer of a closing line: “The Changeling...before he died, he whispered something to me. He said: ‘You’re too late—we’re everywhere.’”
I found “The Adversary” a strong and satisfying finale, although it’s not without flaws, which I’m going to get out of the way first. Unfortunately, I have a fairly big issue with Sisko heading off on the Defiant with all his senior staff to a situation that could easily escalate into war—WITHOUT consulting Starfleet Command whatsoever. I mean, really? The entire mission is initiated by an Ambassador we’ve never even heard of before (although his voice is mightily familiar...! I’m a bit perplexed the producers re-cast Lawrence Pressman so soon after he played Ghemor in “Second Skin”, especially given how distinctive his voice is). Sisko takes Krajensky’s word for everything, doesn’t check anything himself, much less discuss the mission with his superiors before leaving. Given the delicacy of the mission, that’s unforgivable, Ben! If I were at Starfleet Command I’d be demoting you back to Commander, I’m afraid! Of course, I guess you could suppose that maybe Sisko did speak with Starfleet Command and his transmission was somehow intercepted by the Founders, who impersonated an Admiral. But that should really have been addressed in the script; just a line or two would have sufficed.
While I’m complaining, I find it really strains credulity that we have the entire senior staff aboard the Defiant. The Starfleet officers I can buy, but Kira and Odo have no business being aboard the Defiant; particularly on a mission that has nothing directly to do with Bajor. But, of course, the story required at least Odo on board, and Nana Visitor may well have been pissed if she’d only had a Quark-esque cameo at the start of the episode. I also felt the sudden, abrupt introduce of the Tzenkethi worked to the episode’s detriment. Supposedly they’re a major threat to the Federation yet they hadn’t even been mentioned in three decades of Star Trek—and we never do actually see them, which feels like a bit of a cheat. I wonder if it might have worked better had the episode featured another aggressive race we’d at least heard of, such as the Tholians.
I also have to say, the Founders also took a quite gamble having all the crew aboard, determined as they were to regain control of the ship, when they could simply have stolen the Defiant ala Tom Riker and had the Jem’Hadar pilot it to Tzenkethi. Yet, the plan shows just how utterly Machiavellian the Dominion is. Why use brute force and decimate their own resources when they can cripple their enemies by manipulating them into going to war with other rivals? We see the Dominion use such tactics time and again; most recently in the superb “The Die is Cast”. It’s not so much what the Dominion does that makes them such fascinating villains, but the way they do it.
The basic thrust of the plot is very much inspired by John Carpenter’s “The Thing” and, on the whole, it works very well. Admittedly, I felt Alexander Singer’s directing wasn’t quite as tight as it could have been, but he does cultivate a suitable sense of tension and claustrophobia (thanks in part to the rather limited Defiant sets—I don’t think this would have worked nearly as well had it been set on the spacious Enterprise-D). The paranoia that brews as the crew pair up to hunt down the Changeling is nicely unnerving and disorienting. Highlights of the episode include the shocking reveal of Krajensky as a Changeling (I love the look on Dax’s face as she looks up from her tricorder) and the blood test scene is excellent, and sees poor Eddington falsely incriminated. Interestingly, although Eddington is on our side here, I find there’s something inherently smug and untrustworthy about the guy. I wasn’t sure where the writers were going with the character at this point, but I knew he wasn’t to be trusted.
The inevitable confrontation between Odo and the Founder culminates in a real “oh shit” moment, with Odo becoming the first Changeling to earn the dubious honour of having harmed another. It’s a suitably dramatic, wrenching finale, and although the morphing CGI is a little variable in quality, the Changeling’s demise, dissolving into a pile of charcoal, is memorable and novel. Again, this leads to the closing scene in the wardroom and Odo’s ominous warning about the Founders, which will have ramifications throughout the rest of the series. Overall, this is a taut and effective little episode. I wouldn’t say it’s among the show’s greatest finales and it’s not without some plot holes, but definitely a solid effort. I’m going to take a break for a few days as I’m pretty tired right now, but I can’t wait to dive into season four, which, if memory serves, certainly ranks among Trek’s altogether best seasons. Rating: 8
Incidentally, there’s an episode in Futurama’s final season called “Murder on the Planet Express” that’s remarkably similar to “The Adversary”. It also features a murderous shapechanger on the loose on the ship, and the crew becoming ever more paranoid of each other. If I recall, there’s even a scene where the shapechanger is ‘unmasked’ and it shoots through an air vent, much as the Krajensky/changeling does here.
Excellent review, as always!
I will agree with you that DS9's season finales tend to be the best ones of all the shows precisely because they aren't direct two-parters. It gives the writers breathing room to come up with something good. Not to say all the season premieres of TNG, VOYAGER, and ENTERPRISE ones are bad, but they did lean more on the disappointing side because of the high stakes of the previous episode. I put DS9's "CALL TO ARMS" on par with "The Best of Both Worlds", and in some ways it SURPASSES it. They packed a LOT of character arcs in with the coming Dominion War. And that final shot... my jaw was on the floor when it aired. That summer was torture, waiting for season 6. I might actually call it the most perfect season finale the franchise ever did.
(Sorry for going on a tangent... anytime something leads into that episode, I get too excited.)
It was odd that Sisko didn't confirm the orders, but that can be handwaived by an intercepted transmission. I find it interesting they use a brand new race, the Tzenkethi. We later learn Ben was XO of a ship during that war. It would have been nice to see one at some point.
I think the Founders real plan was more than just starting a war with the Tzenkethi. I think that was step one. The next few would have seen the Federation at war with several other smaller powers. Much harder to defend against multiple small targets all around than one giant force from one direction. Resources are spread farther, entire sectors get depleted of ships, etc. Death of a thousand cuts, essentially.
And I totally agree... the way the Founders do their thing is why they are so dangerous.
Great read, as usual. Get some rest for as long as you need. We'll all be here when you return.
In a sense, we die multiple times in our life because we DO change over the years. There are aspects of myself that are different than 5 years ago, and 10 years, 20 years, etc. Honestly, I am a VERY different person now than I was 10 years ago. And a LOT can happen to a person in a year.
There are aspects of Tom and Will that are the same. It's why he was able to impersonate Will like he did. They are different people, but not massively different.
Every memory is a neurological change. Indeed, Tom Riker perhaps experienced profound changes because of his solitude, his struggle with survival, and probably some depression. He couldn't be considered to be the "pure" copy of the Will Riker personality.
At this point I'm wondering whether the Founders even really cared whether or not the Federation and Tzenkethi went to war, or whether it was more of a test. We never see the Dominion engage in this particular tactic again, and it is arguably a little inconsistent with their normal methods of handling situation.
It's probably safe to assume that having Krajensky get killed wasn't part of the plan though.
It's probably safe to assume that having Krajensky get killed wasn't part of the plan though.
Our DS9 crew never sees the tactic again, but that doesn't mean another ship or crew didn't have this attempted on them.
I also think that some side things happened that hurt ship production before the war started. Things the Founders made happen to make victory more likely.
I also think that some side things happened that hurt ship production before the war started. Things the Founders made happen to make victory more likely.
