Spoilers PIC: The Dark Veil by James Swallow - Review Thread

[hbquikcomjamesl]

At least one novel (a Reeves-Stevens non-Shatnerverse effort, if I remember right), and the long-deprecated-with-extreme-prejudice Spaceflight Chronology, did have Cochrane (or as Garfield and Judith transliterated the native Centaurian, something like Zefrayem Cokraan) as a Centaurian native.

Of course, if he were a native Centauri, than why didn't he have a crosswise mohawk atop his head, and six prehensile penes erupting from his back?

But to the present opus, having finished my annual Lenten trip through the KJV, and finished ADF's The Flavors of Other Worlds, I'm now one chapter in, with no idea what's going on, but noticing that it seems to do a pretty decent job of straddling the Novelverse and what I've seen to-date of the AllAccessVerse (RoddenberryEntertainmentVerse? RodVerse?).

Then again, I have no difficulty at all mentally reconciling Diane Duane's Rihansu, the Sherman-Shwartz Romulans, and the TNG-and-post-TNG canonical Romulans with each other.

 

[Christopher]

At least one novel (a Reeves-Stevens non-Shatnerverse effort, if I remember right), and the long-deprecated-with-extreme-prejudice Spaceflight Chronology, did have Cochrane (or as Garfield and Judith transliterated the native Centaurian, something like Zefrayem Cokraan) as a Centaurian native.

The Concordance said as much too. But as I said, that's taking the "Cochrane of Alpha Centauri" line out of context and ignoring all the other references in "Metamorphosis" to Cochrane being an Earth human.

Star Trek Maps split the difference -- it said Alp Cen was already inhabited by Preserver-transplanted Ancient Greeks, but also that Cochrane made his home there later in life rather than being native. I don't get why they bothered with the transplanted humans if they correctly understood that Cochrane himself was from Earth.

But to the present opus, having finished my annual Lenten trip through the KJV, and finished ADF's The Flavors of Other Worlds, I'm now one chapter in, with no idea what's going on, but noticing that it seems to do a pretty decent job of straddling the Novelverse and what I've seen to-date of the AllAccessVerse (RoddenberryEntertainmentVerse? RodVerse?).

It's the Prime Universe, just the newest continuation of it. Anyway, CBS All Access is now called Paramount+. And the main production company other than CBS is Alex Kurtzman & Heather Kadin's Secret Hideout Productions. Roddenberry Entertainment is just a financing partner. I believe that in recent years, they negotiated a new contract with CBS that entitles them to a producing credit and consulting role in every new Trek series, but they're not the ones actually making the shows.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm confused how a non-Trek short story collection is fitting in with the novels/TV Trek universe

 

[Christopher]

I'm confused how a non-Trek short story collection is fitting in with the novels/TV Trek universe

I was confused at first too, but I think hbquikcomjamesl meant he finished the collection and then started reading The Dark Veil, which is what the rest of the paragraph was about.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Precisely. The ADF anthology had as much to do with The Dark Veil as my Lenten discipline of reading the entire KJV did. Simply one more reason why I'm only getting to The Dark Veil now.

Hmm. Macha Hernandez. An early developmental version of Tasha Yar, from back when Denise "Pookie" Crosby was being considered for Troi.

Hmm. So how is it (in-universe) that that the Zhat Vash didn't assassinate Data? Or reduce Mudd's Planet to a cinder? They certainly couldn't have been unaware of Data's existence, and they had plenty of opportunity, especially given that he and Picard were on Romulus together.

 

[Christopher]

Hmm. So how is it (in-universe) that that the Zhat Vash didn't assassinate Data? Or reduce Mudd's Planet to a cinder? They certainly couldn't have been unaware of Data's existence, and they had plenty of opportunity, especially given that he and Picard were on Romulus together.

We had that discussion on the previous page of this thread.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

We had that discussion on the previous page of this thread.

Thanks. I think I'll wait to look until I finish the book.

"Macha Hernandez" can't possibly not be an Easter egg alluding to the early development of TNG. And I like the reference to Insurrection, a movie I rather liked, in part because of the absence of any of the "usual suspects" as bad guys.

 

[Damian]

Hmm. So how is it (in-universe) that that the Zhat Vash didn't assassinate Data? Or reduce Mudd's Planet to a cinder? They certainly couldn't have been unaware of Data's existence, and they had plenty of opportunity, especially given that he and Picard were on Romulus together

Yeah, as Christopher noted we had a bit of a discussion about that.

Not giving anything away for you but it was something that bothered me about the show itself...it just seemed to come out of nowhere. If it were a plot point that came up after Nemesis, that'd be one thing. But this idea that it was always an issue just bothered me a bit. The Romulans interacted with Data in the past without any hint of a problem. It just didn't feel "right" to me, for lack of a better word.

I didn't hold anything against Swallow's book...since he had to base his book on the show it wouldn't be fair to hold it against the book.

 

[James Swallow]

Hmm. Macha Hernandez. An early developmental version of Tasha Yar, from back when Denise "Pookie" Crosby was being considered for Troi.

I've always imagined that Hernandez and Yar were the two officers up for the security chief gig on the Enterprise-D, but Tasha got it and Macha didn't, so she went off and had a career elsewhere in Starfleet. I liked the thought of rescuing the character from the cutting room floor - and in fact, it's not the first time I've done it. In my Myriad Universes novella Seeds of Dissent, the character of Constantin Amoros appears - Amoros being an early version of DS9's Bashir.

Hmm. So how is it (in-universe) that that the Zhat Vash didn't assassinate Data? Or reduce Mudd's Planet to a cinder? They certainly couldn't have been unaware of Data's existence, and they had plenty of opportunity, especially given that he and Picard were on Romulus together.

See my comments here:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/pic...low-review-thread.306793/page-7#post-13732544

 

[Damian]

The Dark Veil does give us a bit of an 'out' when it comes to Romulan reactions to Data in the past. Mendaka feels some unease about artificial lifeforms. It's not to the level of the Zhat Vash. But it noted all Romulans were suspicious of AI.

It still feels a bit 'off' when you think of the few times Romulans encountered Data in the past in TNG or in Nemesis (though actual Romulan encounters with Data in the film were minimal at most).

Jarok in "The Defector" for instance has significant interactions with Data. Sela as well had interactions with Data, and several Romulans encounter Data in "Unification" without any signs of even apprehension. And there were other passing encounters with Data here and there throughout the series.

I liked Picard for the most part, but that was one thing that just stuck out for me about the show. There were a couple of times Romulans encountered Data in TNG, some of them significant and not just passing encounters. It's hard to poo-poo that away, though I give Swallow credit for trying to provide an in story explanation for the difference.

 

[Christopher]

I liked Picard for the most part, but that was one thing that just stuck out for me about the show. There were a couple of times Romulans encountered Data in TNG, some of them significant and not just passing encounters. It's hard to poo-poo that away, though I give Swallow credit for trying to provide an in story explanation for the difference.

It's hardly the first difficult-to-reconcile retcon in Trek history. For me, the biggest one is still the retcon of a Cardassian war during the first two seasons of TNG, in which Starfleet had been portrayed as a peacetime service where the very concept of war games was considered antiquated and unnecessary. There's also practically everything "The Host" established about the Trill being ignored or changed by DS9, Archer's Enterprise being retconned in when 1701 had been repeatedly called the first starship of that name, DSC retconning Harry Mudd from a harmless con man into a hardcore murderer, etc.

 

[Damian]

It's hardly the first difficult-to-reconcile retcon in Trek history. For me, the biggest one is still the retcon of a Cardassian war during the first two seasons of TNG, in which Starfleet had been portrayed as a peacetime service where the very concept of war games was considered antiquated and unnecessary. There's also practically everything "The Host" established about the Trill being ignored or changed by DS9, Archer's Enterprise being retconned in when 1701 had been repeatedly called the first starship of that name, DSC retconning Harry Mudd from a harmless con man into a hardcore murderer, etc.

Yes, granted. I have less of an issue with the Cardassian War, though I see your point. The Trill think was significant, though since they were only in one episode of TNG prior to that it's a little easier to gloss over (plus I'm probably a bit biased on that point since some novels have addressed some of those points).

Mudd did bother me a bit in Discovery. I agree that in the original series Mudd was more con man then hostile murderer. I don't know why but it just seemed in the original series he would find committing murder himself to be icky. I could see him causing someone to be killed by one of his schemes or just plain carelessness. But to actually commit murder himself, no.

It's kind of funny the things that bother each of us about continuity. There are things that bother me and things that don't so much. Like the Cardassian War...I honestly never gave that much thought--though arguably as you noted it's a bigger plot hole that even the Mudd issue. Yet, Mudd bothers me more. The Zhat Vash and androids I find bothers me, though even still, I consider that more of a nit pick than something that really grates on me. Spore drive in Discover is a big bugaboo for me. That one drives me nuts. Section 31's portrayal in Discovery also bugs me quite a bit in how open they appear to be there compared to DS9 and Enterprise. I know you've also noted Data's differences in earlier and later seasons, yet that one didn't even register to me until you brought it up.

So in my case at least, I can't really find a pattern to what bothers me about inconsistencies and what doesn't. Sometimes a major plot hole bothers me, sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes I make a big deal about what is probably a minor detail to most.

 

[Christopher]

Spore drive in Discover is a big bugaboo for me. That one drives me nuts.

I don't see it as any worse than all the other super-technologies that were introduced and subsequently ignored. I mean, the android tech that Sargon and Thalassa left behind on the Enterprise should've advanced Federation robotics to a huge degree. Reverse-engineering the tech of the Kalandan planetoid should've given them interstellar transporters, or they could've traded with Triskelion for the technology.

 

[Damian]

I don't see it as any worse than all the other super-technologies that were introduced and subsequently ignored. I mean, the android tech that Sargon and Thalassa left behind on the Enterprise should've advanced Federation robotics to a huge degree. Reverse-engineering the tech of the Kalandan planetoid should've given them interstellar transporters, or they could've traded with Triskelion for the technology.

Yeah, but in many of those cases they were once and done. Spore drive was a major part of Discovery's back story, not a one episode here today gone tomorrow tech.

I mean, you're right about those, but they didn't become a major back story for the entire series.

But I admit, my own feelings aren't exactly consistent. Some things I let go, or may not even notice until someone points it out. Then other things stick in my head. The Klingon redesign in Discovery for instance--I hate it. Yet the Tellarite redesigns in Enterprise and Discovery really don't bother me. Romulan ridges in TNG bug some people--doesn't phase me.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, but in many of those cases they were once and done. Spore drive was a major part of Discovery's back story, not a one episode here today gone tomorrow tech.

A distinction that only matters to us from our subjective perspective as viewers. It's irrelevant to the in-universe logic. For instance, we only saw the "soliton wave" propulsion experiment in one TNG episode, but the team that developed it must have worked on it for years, just as much as Stamets & co. worked on spore drive. It doesn't have a smaller footprint in the universe just because we spent less time paying attention to it from outside.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Hmm. Encountering a character named "Friend" rang another bell in the back of my mind, and I was right: the TV series version of Logan's Run, an episode called "The Innocent." I don't remember a damn thing about the episode (about the only thing I remember about the whole series was that I liked it better than the movie), and at first, I didn't ever realize I was remembering an episode of Logan's Run, but somehow, I remembered there was an episode of something, with a character with an in-universe name of "Friend."

I also seem to recall that Friend, like Donald Moffat's series-regular, Rem, was an android.

 

[Christopher]

Hmm. Encountering a character named "Friend" rang another bell in the back of my mind, and I was right: the TV series version of Logan's Run, an episode called "The Innocent." I don't remember a damn thing about the episode (about the only thing I remember about the whole series was that I liked it better than the movie), and at first, I didn't ever realize I was remembering an episode of Logan's Run, but somehow, I remembered there was an episode of something, with a character with an in-universe name of "Friend."

I also seem to recall that Friend, like Donald Moffat's series-regular, Rem, was an android.

I covered "The Innocent" recently in my Patreon reviews of Logan's Run (on the $5 subscription tier) It was co-written by D.C. Fontana and was basically a gender-swapped "Charlie X," albeit with a happier ending. Friend was a bipedal robot (a visibly mechanical automaton) rather than an android (a human-presenting automaton); I described him in my review as "not unlike a Cylon with Marvin the Martian’s head." Rem would have been highly insulted to be equated to Friend, though they did end up warming to each other eventually.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

I remember Friend being much more crude than Rem.

I find myself thinking of Robbie the Robot's guest appearance on Columbo. The episode was set in a think-tank, and Robbie was cast as "Double-M Seven," a robot built by a boy-genius.

 

[James Swallow]

Hmm. Encountering a character named "Friend" rang another bell in the back of my mind, and I was right: the TV series version of Logan's Run, an episode called "The Innocent."

Huh. Interesting coincidence (as I did watch the Logan tv show as a kid) but not a deliberate reference on my part.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Unlike the rather obvious (at least to those who had followed the development process for TNG) Easter-egg of Macha Hernandez, the Logan's Run coincidence was too obscure and off-the-wall to have been deliberate.

Almost 2/3 of the way through. Medaka reminds me a lot of the Romulan Commander from "Balance of Terror." And of
Diane Duane's Ael t'Rllaillieu. And I find myself thinking of an observation I made right around the time I read Mary Trump's book:

Those who are "on the take," willing to lie, cheat, and steal, and to betray their colleagues, friends, country, family, or most selfless benefactor for the sake of personal material gain, are utterly terrified by anybody who is honest, who is genuinely motivated by selfless altruism. And it's perfectly understandable.

Imagine that you are "on the take." How exactly do you live with yourself, knowing that? You can't, unless you are fully convinced that everybody else is, too. And so if somebody appears to be honest and/or selflessly altruistic, completely devoid of base greed, then your mindset and worldview give you no choice but to assume that they are merely very good at hiding it.