There are people who did better with a home PC and cheap software than TOS-R's team did...but then, I digress...
TAS made real....
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
That's what VHS is for.
With...the same level of tech. We have better computers in our phones than NASA possessed in 1966. TOS was 100% analog. Optical compositing and effects. The budget was $220,000.00 an episode. That includes actors to Vulcan ear wax.
It is easy to say how easy that is now, and it is. But you have tools that would have made good plot points in TOS.
I think there's something of a misunderstanding regarding the Aurora issue, we're talking about TOS-R (remastered), not the original TOS; the budget or computing power of the 60's is not relevant as we're talking about a remaster done in the 2000's.
TOS-R did have a rather big budget, and they did create brand new designs even when maybe they weren't as needed (Gorn ship, Medusan ship). So I 100% agree that they were able and should have done a better job with the Aurora.
TOS-R did have a rather big budget, and they did create brand new designs even when maybe they weren't as needed (Gorn ship, Medusan ship). So I 100% agree that they were able and should have done a better job with the Aurora.
Yes, the original Aurora was a disappointing reuse of the Tholian ship in that it was such a cheap move. The TOS-R version is disappointing because it looks so dumb. Hell, something like one of the ships I’ve fleshed out in this thread would have made a better Aurora.
The original model just had nacelles stuck to the Tholian webspinner. *Sigh* I’d like to ponder what else could have been done on the cheap with scrap wood and other materials on hand rather than reuse a miniature used for something meant to be totally different only a few episodes prior. I might use that as a starting point before fleshing it out with more detail.
Indeed this is pretty much a starting mindset I would use in creating ships for TOS—what could be done physically back in the day with resources at hand even under the best of conditions? And remember that the Klingon D7 battle cruiser, with its elaborate shapes and detail, was designed back then and then fabricated. Yes, AMT paid for it and built it for TOS, but it shows what was possible. And you can look beyond TOS to other shows and films produced in that era to see what was possible.
Lost In Space and Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea showed, on television, how miniatures could be shown flying, taking off and landing in atmosphere. Imagine if TOS had depicted the shuttlecraft Galileo that way once or twice. VTTBOTS showed how an aquashuttle could have been depicted with their very cool looking Flying Sub.
The original model just had nacelles stuck to the Tholian webspinner. *Sigh* I’d like to ponder what else could have been done on the cheap with scrap wood and other materials on hand rather than reuse a miniature used for something meant to be totally different only a few episodes prior. I might use that as a starting point before fleshing it out with more detail.
Indeed this is pretty much a starting mindset I would use in creating ships for TOS—what could be done physically back in the day with resources at hand even under the best of conditions? And remember that the Klingon D7 battle cruiser, with its elaborate shapes and detail, was designed back then and then fabricated. Yes, AMT paid for it and built it for TOS, but it shows what was possible. And you can look beyond TOS to other shows and films produced in that era to see what was possible.
Lost In Space and Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea showed, on television, how miniatures could be shown flying, taking off and landing in atmosphere. Imagine if TOS had depicted the shuttlecraft Galileo that way once or twice. VTTBOTS showed how an aquashuttle could have been depicted with their very cool looking Flying Sub.
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Had I been a producer on the show I would have requested that a "kit" ship be made: a bunch of different shapes and parts that could be assembled in different configurations to be a ship of the week. I actually drew up something like that once. Maybe I'll sketch it up again.
Anyway, I know that "kit bashing" was not so common back then, but they honestly could have asked AMT for a couple of Deora kits (which I think were out then) or some other kit with an interesting body shape, paint over the windows, turn it upside down and backwards, saw off a couple of AMT Enterprise kit nacelles and steal the sensor dish and bashed together a better Aurora.
Anyway, I know that "kit bashing" was not so common back then, but they honestly could have asked AMT for a couple of Deora kits (which I think were out then) or some other kit with an interesting body shape, paint over the windows, turn it upside down and backwards, saw off a couple of AMT Enterprise kit nacelles and steal the sensor dish and bashed together a better Aurora.
Try $196,000 in the first season, down to about $185,000 by the third. A few episodes went as high as $220,000 or more, but that was an exception, not the rule.
I think it's a little ironic to fret about the TOS-R approach of sometimes trying to mimic the original effects work with computers (with mixed results) and sometimes using their creativity to come up with a different design idea when they found the original design lacking, because this is more or less how I would describe what is done in this very thread, only with TAS designs. 
Sure, you can debate whether you like their new designs, but criticizing the approach of doing some redesigns in the first place seems a bit weird to me.
Sure, you can debate whether you like their new designs, but criticizing the approach of doing some redesigns in the first place seems a bit weird to me.
Part of what annoys me with new TOS-R designs is that they don’t look much like what would likely have been done if TOS could have come up with something. And I have acknowledged the same thing with the TAS designs I’ve explored in this thread.
TOS would never have used shuttlecraft designs like those seen in TAS. They would have just used what they already had. I’ve tried to rationalize what we see in TAS through a TOS perspective, but don’t think that MJ would have come up with those designs. Having said that we can remember MJ’s original shuttlecraft design which was somewhat more elaborate and somewhat more aircraft like so who knows what he could have designed later down the road.
TOS would never have used shuttlecraft designs like those seen in TAS. They would have just used what they already had. I’ve tried to rationalize what we see in TAS through a TOS perspective, but don’t think that MJ would have come up with those designs. Having said that we can remember MJ’s original shuttlecraft design which was somewhat more elaborate and somewhat more aircraft like so who knows what he could have designed later down the road.
A $220,000 1966 figure is of course meaningless to a 2021 audience of readers.
$220,000 in 1966 is equal to $1.8 million today.
So episodes of TOS were budgeted between a $1.5 million low and a $1.8 million (2021 dollars) high.
To provide a meaningful comparison, TNG was reportedly budgeted $2.3 million in 2021 dollars per episode by its final 1994 season.
The really amazing distinction is with STD, which is reportedly budgeted $8 million per episode. That spinning starship effect must take up at least 3/4 of it. :P
But to be fair, TOS was made to be viewed one or two times on largely black and white, grainy, 1966 televisions. TNG was made to be seen many times on 1990 VHS and broadcast TV in color. And STD is made to be seen in 4k or better. TOS had 3 primary actors. TNG had 6. And STD has... a whole bunch.
$220,000 in 1966 is equal to $1.8 million today.
So episodes of TOS were budgeted between a $1.5 million low and a $1.8 million (2021 dollars) high.
To provide a meaningful comparison, TNG was reportedly budgeted $2.3 million in 2021 dollars per episode by its final 1994 season.
The really amazing distinction is with STD, which is reportedly budgeted $8 million per episode. That spinning starship effect must take up at least 3/4 of it. :P
But to be fair, TOS was made to be viewed one or two times on largely black and white, grainy, 1966 televisions. TNG was made to be seen many times on 1990 VHS and broadcast TV in color. And STD is made to be seen in 4k or better. TOS had 3 primary actors. TNG had 6. And STD has... a whole bunch.
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The other thing that has changed between the 1960s and today is perspective. The creative teams of the ‘60s could draw upon only what was known then. They could have no conception whatsoever of what was to come in film and television over the next fifty years. Today’s creators have a completely different perspective because they are drawing upon everything that has been done over the last fifty years—reference materiel that simply wasn’t available to TOS’ creative team. And it’s not easy to divorce oneself from being influenced from more contemporary references. And if you never grew up or lived in that era it could be even more difficult to narrow your perspective.
The same can be said of fan film productions and, particularly, how they write TOS stories. They are drawing upon extensive post TOS series and films that simply didn’t exist fifty years ago. And there are other influences as well such as changes in real world science, technology and society in general including how people actually speak. As such the fan productions can look very authentic to TOS in many ways, but the way the characters are written, the way they speak and the references they make and the kind of stories they tell diverge from how TOS writers would have done things. Indeed the very basic issue in how colloquial English has evolved over the past fifty years makes a difference. These differences can fly right over the heads of some viewers while to others they stand out like a huge pimple on your face that they cannot ignore.
TAS gets a bit of a pass because it was produced only a few years after TOS and many of those involved with it also worked on TOS. The divergence is that animation allowed them to do things that couldn’t have been done on TOS, but the references they drew upon were still very much the same. Also TAS didn’t apply the same parameters to ship and set design that Matt Jefferies would have had. MJ knew how big his hangar deck was so he wouldn’t have designed something he knew wouldn’t fit into it.
So much about TOS has been unearthed over the ensuing decades that it’s highly unlikely there remains much in terms of hidden gems waiting to be revealed. But it would be something to see previously never seen concept sketches of things that were never built due to cost restrictions. All we really have presently are early concepts for the Enterprise, shuttlecraft and Klingon ship as Jefferies worked toward their final designs. It would be interesting to see other things he might have envisioned, but were ultimately never realized, if they exist. Same with Wah Chang—did he come up with the Romulan BoP straight off or did he sketch out different ideas first before settling on his final design?
The same can be said of fan film productions and, particularly, how they write TOS stories. They are drawing upon extensive post TOS series and films that simply didn’t exist fifty years ago. And there are other influences as well such as changes in real world science, technology and society in general including how people actually speak. As such the fan productions can look very authentic to TOS in many ways, but the way the characters are written, the way they speak and the references they make and the kind of stories they tell diverge from how TOS writers would have done things. Indeed the very basic issue in how colloquial English has evolved over the past fifty years makes a difference. These differences can fly right over the heads of some viewers while to others they stand out like a huge pimple on your face that they cannot ignore.
TAS gets a bit of a pass because it was produced only a few years after TOS and many of those involved with it also worked on TOS. The divergence is that animation allowed them to do things that couldn’t have been done on TOS, but the references they drew upon were still very much the same. Also TAS didn’t apply the same parameters to ship and set design that Matt Jefferies would have had. MJ knew how big his hangar deck was so he wouldn’t have designed something he knew wouldn’t fit into it.
So much about TOS has been unearthed over the ensuing decades that it’s highly unlikely there remains much in terms of hidden gems waiting to be revealed. But it would be something to see previously never seen concept sketches of things that were never built due to cost restrictions. All we really have presently are early concepts for the Enterprise, shuttlecraft and Klingon ship as Jefferies worked toward their final designs. It would be interesting to see other things he might have envisioned, but were ultimately never realized, if they exist. Same with Wah Chang—did he come up with the Romulan BoP straight off or did he sketch out different ideas first before settling on his final design?
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TNG had a primary actor, Patrick Stewart, and I'm not sure that series would ever had a chance without him.
I mean, by it's nature it is a fan production. That is something that simply would not exist without TOS and it carries with it this other weight of we have to treat TOS as a fan precious commodity. People working on TOS would not have had that reverence, beyond not wanting to break their props. It was a job, pure and simple. Not saying they couldn't be passionate about their work, but there wasn't this special privilege ascribed to the work. Again, this isn't to take away from their work but to recognize that their attitude would be much different than a fan's work.
Fan work is amazing but I find it very difficult to judge a fan work vs. a professional work because it is two different worlds. Fans take a lot of time, attention, and look at every particular detail to make sure it fits. Professional work is striving to be done on time and on budget. There is a level of stress that would impact a point of view, just like a fan's love of TOS would impact their view.
This isn't to say that either can't do poor work but that I am so hesitant to mock professional work around Trek. Not saying it can't be poorly done but that there are limits that fans don't have when it comes to it. It is a matter of perspective, and that perspective, and the way of doing VFX, has substantially changed.
All of us, as fans, express our interest in different ways and with different criteria.
I think at some point I will tackle some elements of unseen TOS and try to put myself in the mindset of considering only what was available then in terms of resources and references. My sole conceits would be I’m using 3D modelling to visualize what would have been done physically then and imagining they had a bit more time and money to get it done.
Mind you that isn’t too dissimilar from what I’ve been trying to do in this thread. None of the designs explored here are really overly detailed as modern television miniatures would be. My standard has been the best miniatures we saw on TOS rather than the worst.
I think at some point I will tackle some elements of unseen TOS and try to put myself in the mindset of considering only what was available then in terms of resources and references. My sole conceits would be I’m using 3D modelling to visualize what would have been done physically then and imagining they had a bit more time and money to get it done.
Mind you that isn’t too dissimilar from what I’ve been trying to do in this thread. None of the designs explored here are really overly detailed as modern television miniatures would be. My standard has been the best miniatures we saw on TOS rather than the worst.
And your approach is admirable and I appreciate your work.
The aesthetic was everything on the inside. Long before the ILM greeblie disease. 1960 industrial design school of sleek, smooth and balanced. Sorry ILM, but "busy" does not mean better.
There was not a lot of external detail on anything coming out of the Jefferies shop. It was not for the lack of the ability to do so. It was the style they wanted.
In fairness look at what else was being done on other productions. I am thinking largely in terms of what we saw on Lost In Space, Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea, The Invaders, Land Of The Giants, Twilight Zone, The Outer Limits and various feature films of the era. Forbidden Planet was a highwater mark in SF film production, but design wise it was very rooted in 1950’s pulp sci-fi imagery. This mindset carried on into The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits. The 1960s began to see a design approach tied more to the real world space program in terms of projecting forward from what was known. And many of the designers had real world experience in terms of being former airforce pilots and navy men, and drew on that experience. They weren’t just guys weaned on reading and watching sci-fi and building on that sole inspiration.
The first big project to bring a new level of detail to science fiction was 2001: A Space Odyssey. It wasn’t pitched as far future SF, but it brought an added level of realism to the genre in the visual medium. In some respects I see 2001 rather than Star Wars as more of a visual inspiration to TMP in terms of the tech looking convincingly purposeful.
2001 also represents the epitome of what was possible in the mid to late ‘60s in terms of visual fx.
Note: At this very moment I am sitting her pondering what could be done with a stock of scrap wood, various basic stuff lying around in terms of plastic and metal, maybe some store bought model kits, a decently equipped wood/work shop and some imagination. Hmm...gotta start sketching...
The first big project to bring a new level of detail to science fiction was 2001: A Space Odyssey. It wasn’t pitched as far future SF, but it brought an added level of realism to the genre in the visual medium. In some respects I see 2001 rather than Star Wars as more of a visual inspiration to TMP in terms of the tech looking convincingly purposeful.
2001 also represents the epitome of what was possible in the mid to late ‘60s in terms of visual fx.
Note: At this very moment I am sitting her pondering what could be done with a stock of scrap wood, various basic stuff lying around in terms of plastic and metal, maybe some store bought model kits, a decently equipped wood/work shop and some imagination. Hmm...gotta start sketching...
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Looking at this image I posted several pages back upthread I think this a good example of what could have been done on TOS. It is really a few very elemental shapes integrated into an unusual way. Something like this should have been reasonably simple to work up in a woodworking shop.
Although it could be approached in different ways this is basically three or four pieces of wood shaped on a lathe, maybe add some grooves into the cones and add a few extra little bits and pieces. Paint it in an interesting way and presto!—alien ship.
Just looking at this I can imagine variations of it that could easily have worked as an alien ship previously represented by a blob of light seen at a distance. Gorn or Medusan anyone?
Although it could be approached in different ways this is basically three or four pieces of wood shaped on a lathe, maybe add some grooves into the cones and add a few extra little bits and pieces. Paint it in an interesting way and presto!—alien ship.
Just looking at this I can imagine variations of it that could easily have worked as an alien ship previously represented by a blob of light seen at a distance. Gorn or Medusan anyone?
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