MemoryAlpha editor refuses to change Adira's Gender to "Non-Binary"

[NCC-73515]

Hell, even the opening captain’s log is problematic. Yes, the purpose of those logs is more to provide the viewer with exposition than to actually be a true captain’s log, but dammit, identifying them as “an androgynous race” in the log? He never would say, “We’ve taken on a delegation of Vulcans, a pointy-eared species,” so why’s he pointing it out here?"

If that's the most obvious feature, why not mention it? The introduction to the Borg should mention they're a cybernetic hive collective, the intro to the Klingons and Romulans was "warlike", etc., why would this new species lack a description in a log entry?

The ending is one of the more horrific things shown on Trek. Having the lone LGBTQ character end up "cured" in a conversation therapy that works really makes it one of the single worst attempt at doing an "issues" episode. It's probably done more damage to the LGBTQ fans than we can ever know. All it does is show us that we'd either need to hide who were or end up suffering a terrible fate.

Did Benny Russell's beating and having his story retracted damage FBTS's message against racism?
Did Bele taking Lokai to Cheron where the end of their entire world is revealed damage LTBYLB's message against racism?
Did the decades of successful occupation of Bajor with labor camps and medical experiments damage DS9's message against the holocaust?
Perhaps they actually enhanced them.

Doesnt really come across great to be questioning someones life experience
I dont see NCC anywhere in Possums quote so why get so defensive.

Who does that here?
Could be because of Possum's tone and attitude.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

At the end of "The Outcast," the crew do not try very hard to free Soren; she's just not that important. On the contrary, without even talking to Noor himself, Picard threatens Riker with the end of his career, if he does anything to interfere with the J'naii's application of their conversion therapy to Soren. Once the therapy is a fait accompli, Riker falls in line without another peep. The message is that one should roll over and follow laws establishing institutionalized oppression, without even fighting to change them. It's is a very retrograde message.

In contrast, Kirk never hid behind the Prime Directive, and he never let the Prime Direction stop him from doing the right thing.

One other thing is that there are parallels between "The Outcast" and the Twilight Zone episode "Eye of the Beholder" (a.k.a., "The Private World Of Darkness") [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_the_Beholder_(The_Twilight_Zone,_1959)]. In the TZ episode, a beautiful woman is subjected to therapy to make her supposedly normal, which in actually would eliminate her beauty and make her ugly in a world of ugly people. The attempt to eliminate her natural beauty is something that the two episodes have in common; in the TZ episode the beauty is on the outside, in the TNG episode it is on the inside. If we assume full thematic correspondence, then the implication is that a genderless society is to be regarded as ugly; in fact, the J'naii society is clearly depicted as drab and unattractive. Antifeminists mischaracterize progressive inclusiveness as an attempt to bring about a society in which masculinity has been eliminated, so a society without gender is one that seems symbolic of that straw man. Therefore, the TNG episode resonates as a critique of progressive inclusiveness, by giving oxygen to that straw man in the context of something that is hideously undesirable, that assimilates the unwilling into it by crushing their individuality. Accordingly, this is a failure of TNG to actually be progressive, and a further indication that the showrunners were themselves anything but progressive.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

I literally explained what was wrong with "The Outcast" in the very part of my post which you quoted.

When you ask someone to explain why something was bad after they have already explained why something was bad, it creates the impression that you either: 1) have no reading comprehension, or 2) that you are being deliberately obtuse in order to troll advocates of equality for transgender and nonbinary people.

I genuinely wasn't able to pick up on why you thought it was bad from that post.
So maybe it is my reading comprehension or my lack of deep understanding of the topic but you point to the race been written by cis people which I get but other than that I didn't understand how the episode shows the writers don't believe in the existence of trans people.

Other posts have gone into a lot more detail on it since so don't worry I get it now.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

40 years ago it was the biggest show in America,

I'm not American

And it never sat right with me how they suddenly decided to turn Worf into a bigot in this episode

He always was. He wrongly used his Klingonness to try control Dax too

Her being "cured" should feel as horrible as what happened to Jack Nicholson's RP McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

Always reminded me of Winston Smith after room 101.
I was surprised to find people think it's the end of the episode that is bad as I assumed the end had a good message but it was the attitude of the crew in the rest of the episode was the problem. It's not something I know a lot about though so was only guessing really

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm not American

Neither am I.

 

[cultcross]

When you ask someone to explain why something was bad after they have already explained why something was bad, it creates the impression that you either: 1) have no reading comprehension, or 2) that you are being deliberately obtuse in order to troll advocates of equality for transgender and nonbinary people.

Could be because of Possum's tone and attitude.

Let's watch the drifting into the personal comments please folks, that's to everyone not just those quoted.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I think the ending was more intended to show that "this is something that happens and this is wrong," at least that's how I take it.

It’s focused more on Riker being sad because he lost his love interest than the horrific loss of who she was. It’s shown that it’s wrong, but it fails to convene how horrible it is. It’s the stuff of nightmares.

 

[Arvis Taljik]

It’s focused more on Riker being sad because he lost his love interest than the horrific loss of who she was. It’s shown that it’s wrong, but it fails to convene how horrible it is. It’s the stuff of nightmares.

Agreed.

This is also a common problem when someone with 0 experience in an issue attempts to write a story dealing with said issue. These types of things really should only be told by those with experience, not someone without experience where it tends to either send the wrong message or come off as contrite or patronizing.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I genuinely wasn't able to pick up on why you thought it was bad from that post.
So maybe it is my reading comprehension or my lack of deep understanding of the topic but you point to the race been written by cis people which I get but other than that I didn't understand how the episode shows the writers don't believe in the existence of trans people.

Other posts have gone into a lot more detail on it since so don't worry I get it now.

No one in Starfleet seems to be aware that someone can be a gender they weren’t assigned at birth and that this is a common thing in humans and they also faced a similar reaction in the majority of the population.

Trans people were known of at the time, but mostly as the punchlines to jokes and as the subject of the Jerry Springer show, something that has likely inspired the murder of thousands over the years.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Agreed.

This is also a common problem when someone with 0 experience in an issue attempts to write a story dealing with said issue. These types of things really should only be told by those with experience, not someone without experience where it tends to either send the wrong message or come off as contrite or patronizing.

Based on my experience there hasn’t been a single story written by a cis person without any input from a trans person that rings true. It’s something cis people cannot understand.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

No one in Starfleet seems to be aware that someone can be a gender they weren’t assigned at birth and that this is a common thing in humans and they also faced a similar reaction in the majority of the population.

Trans people were known of at the time, but mostly as the punchlines to jokes and as the subject of the Jerry Springer show, something that has likely inspired the murder of thousands over the years.

Last year was the first time I saw it with an adult understanding of the world (hadn't seen it since 90s ) and some of the crew attitudes were inadvertently terrible.
Like you say they seem unaware as if non gender people only exist on this planet

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Agreed.

This is also a common problem when someone with 0 experience in an issue attempts to write a story dealing with said issue. These types of things really should only be told by those with experience, not someone without experience where it tends to either send the wrong message or come off as contrite or patronizing.

Even the most well intentioned story will end up leaning on stereotypes if written by people with no experience in the matter.

One the funnier side of this problem have a look at the trailer for " Wild Mountain Thyme" and see the hilarious attempts of Blunt and Walken trying to be Irish with a script written by an American who thinks he is Irish.
Jamie Dornan should have known better and I hope he at least got good money for that mess

 

[Jayson1]

At the end of "The Outcast," the crew do not try very hard to free Soren; she's just not that important. On the contrary, without even talking to Noor himself, Picard threatens Riker with the end of his career, if he does anything to interfere with the J'naii's application of their conversion therapy to Soren. Once the therapy is a fait accompli, Riker falls in line without another peep. The message is that one should roll over and follow laws establishing institutionalized oppression, without even fighting to change them. It's is a very retrograde message.

In contrast, Kirk never hid behind the Prime Directive, and he never let the Prime Direction stop him from doing the right thing.

One other thing is that there are parallels between "The Outcast" and the Twilight Zone episode "Eye of the Beholder" (a.k.a., "The Private World Of Darkness") [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_the_Beholder_(The_Twilight_Zone,_1959)]. In the TZ episode, a beautiful woman is subjected to therapy to make her supposedly normal, which in actually would eliminate her beauty and make her ugly in a world of ugly people. The attempt to eliminate her natural beauty is something that the two episodes have in common; in the TZ episode the beauty is on the outside, in the TNG episode it is on the inside. If we assume full thematic correspondence, then the implication is that a genderless society is to be regarded as ugly; in fact, the J'naii society is clearly depicted as drab and unattractive. Antifeminists mischaracterize progressive inclusiveness as an attempt to bring about a society in which masculinity has been eliminated, so a society without gender is one that seems symbolic of that straw man. Therefore, the TNG episode resonates as a critique of progressive inclusiveness, by giving oxygen to that straw man in the context of something that is hideously undesirable, that assimilates the unwilling into it by crushing their individuality. Accordingly, this is a failure of TNG to actually be progressive, and a further indication that the showrunners were themselves anything but progressive.

Picard didn't really hide behind the Prime Directive. He looked the other way when he allowed Riker and Worf to try and rescue Soren in what was a very illegal move that could have easily gotten the Federation into a war. Riker simply failed in his rescue attempt. Episode ends in tragedy with Soren basically being brainwashed because she is considered "mentally ill" which we know is something from our past were being gay was considered a mental illness in the mental healthy community up until I think the 70's when they changed it. Of course this was made in the 90's so they were really only looking at the issue on that level and weren't looking at from a gender or trans or any issue beyond that.

I think it was a pretty good episode and even subtle by Trek standards especially when you see how they took on sexism in "Angel One" or drug addiction in "Symbiosis" It really could have been way way worst. TNG simply was not good at exploring issues. TNG tends to look at human nature from a positive perspective and sort of showcasing the good side of humanity or offering us a nice fantasy in terms of how we hope humanity will evolve someday where everyone is kind of nice or at the very least respectful with each other.

All forms of bigotry is basically gone and even when it shows up the good people of this future is able to quickly put it in it's place. It's been successful with that in all regards except in how it has failed to really let LGBTQ characters be part of the fantasy.

Still I don't see how one can judge a single episode based on the bigger overall sin of the franchise. If TNG had LGBTQ characters on the show then that one episode would simply be what I think it was and a decent B-grade middle of the pack episode elevated by some nice RIker/Soren scenes, Great speech near the end with Soren and Riker and Worf who himself showed bigotry in the episode willing to break the law only to end in a dark tragic ending which was rare for TNG. TNG almost always ended on a happy ending.

Jason

 

[Lord Garth]

I was surprised to find people think it's the end of the episode that is bad as I assumed the end had a good message but it was the attitude of the crew in the rest of the episode was the problem. It's not something I know a lot about though so was only guessing really

I think "The Outcast" had a sound setup. Soren's society isn't going to change. Not in the space of one episode. So it was a good move on their part not to magically change that planet overnight (or at all, for that matter). The Federation also has a policy of non-interference. And Picard's not Kirk. So there's no way he's not going to respect another world's wishes as long as they aren't a threat to his ship, his crew, or the Federation. So those things are fine. That makes sense.

The problem is when it comes down to the character it affects. If Soren wants to fight to stay a woman and to be recognized as one, then why does she ultimately give up? Why does it look like Riker is fighting harder for her than she is for herself?

Why does the episode fall back on "We have to respect the wishes of this society" when it spent most of the time looking like it wanted to say the society's wishes are wrong?

From a 2021 perspective, it looks toothless to have a female actor playing a character who says she's a woman. From a 1992 perspective, it's the only way the episode would've been done. My parents took no issue with "The Outcast" because the creators took a potentially controversial episode and made it safe. Would they have reacted the same way if Soren were played by a male actor who said she's a woman? I would say no. If it were a transgendered female actor, I'd still say they wouldn't have reacted well to it. I think they'd have taken a huge issue with it. A few years later, in 1995, they took a huge issue with Jadzia Dax and Lenara Kahn kissing in "Rejoined".

Wanting to be a Family Show worked against Star Trek being a Message Show. Sometimes a message has to be something people aren't going to be comfortable with. And if Rick Berman & Company were doing everything they could to make people feel comfortable, then how much of a message were they really delivering? How much were they really making the Average Person think about something they hadn't thought of before?

I think the real problem people have with "The Outcast" was that it could've been so much more. But the parameters TNG existed in stopped it from happening before it even started. That's at least my issue with it.

My other issue is one that I had an issue with even when I was 12. While I don't consider myself to be a different gender than what society thinks I'm "supposed to be", I do consider myself to be someone who doesn't fit into the mold of what society thinks I should be and I don't want to do what society thinks I'm "supposed to do" or become who it thinks I'm "supposed to be". I want to be myself. Not who society says it wants me to be. That society never did a damn thing for me, except spend the past 40 years trying to beat me down and break my will. And had I been a weaker person, society actually would've succeeded. So I understand the sentiment and can translate it into my own experience.

I think the real problem with "The Outcast" and the end of it is that it falls on the side of "You're going to be who society says they want you to be and there's nothing anyone can do about it." And I just don't agree with that at all.

Driving this back toward Discovery, it's such a simple thing that Adira sees themself as non-binary and tells Stamets they want to be referred to as "they". Seems like a simple thing anyway. But look at everything that's gone on just to get to the point where we can have this simple fictional exchange in an episode of Star Trek.

 

[Jayson1]

I don't think Soren gave up. I mean she got arrested, If were talking about the ending that is because they already did the medical procedure on her and was basically lobotomized. That's why she is talking about how she was wrong and is now happy and all that stuff. She was no longer the same person anymore. Do people really think that during the ending she literally changed her views on a dime for no reason?

Jason

 

[Guy Gardener]

I don't think Soren gave up. I mean she got arrested, If were talking about the ending that is because they already did the medical procedure on her and was basically lobotomized. That's why she is talking about how she was wrong and is now happy and all that stuff. She was no longer the same person anymore. Do people really think that during the ending she literally changed her views on a dime for no reason?

Jason

TNG Clues.

"Something happened, and I'm sure I'd be furious about it, if I knew what exactly what that was."

 

[NCC-73515]

Let's watch the drifting into the personal comments please folks, that's to everyone not just those quoted.

Thank you.

No one in Starfleet seems to be aware that someone can be a gender they weren’t assigned at birth and that this is a common thing in humans and they also faced a similar reaction in the majority of the population.

Trans people were known of at the time, but mostly as the punchlines to jokes and as the subject of the Jerry Springer show, something that has likely inspired the murder of thousands over the years.

Last year was the first time I saw it with an adult understanding of the world (hadn't seen it since 90s ) and some of the crew attitudes were inadvertently terrible.
Like you say they seem unaware as if non gender people only exist on this planet

That's exactly what I've been trying to say. There was no awareness at the time. Gay awareness started in the 80s and 90s, but when was the first agender pride march, and when were the first broad discussions about agender rights and equality? All I'm saying is: Apparently not before the late 90s. It's like complaining about sexism in 50s TV, or about heavy smoking in movies before 2000 or so
Glad we can finally agree on this

I think "The Outcast" had a sound setup. Soren's society isn't going to change. Not in the space of one episode. So it was a good move on their part not to magically change that planet overnight (or at all, for that matter). The Federation also has a policy of non-interference. And Picard's not Kirk. So there's no way he's not going to respect another world's wishes as long as they aren't a threat to his ship, his crew, or the Federation. So those things are fine. That makes sense.

Exactly. And it's clear the Federation (aka the good ones) don't support it. Even Worf, who was shown to be more bigoted than the rest, supports rescuing Soren.

The problem is when it comes down to the character it affects. If Soren wants to fight to stay a woman and to be recognized as one, then why does she ultimately give up? Why does it look like Riker is fighting harder for her than she is for herself?

Why does the episode fall back on "We have to respect the wishes of this society" when it spent most of the time looking like it wanted to say the society's wishes are wrong?

Getting dragged out of the courtroom in force is not exactly giving up. Her speech was all she could do, and it was great. Sure, she could've kicked the guards and there could've been a huge fistfight, but IIRC, they were 2 against a whole planet.

From a 2021 perspective, it looks toothless to have a female actor playing a character who says she's a woman. From a 1992 perspective, it's the only way the episode would've been done. My parents took no issue with "The Outcast" because the creators took a potentially controversial episode and made it safe. Would they have reacted the same way if Soren were played by a male actor who said she's a woman? I would say no. If it were a transgendered female actor, I'd still say they wouldn't have reacted well to it. I think they'd have taken a huge issue with it. A few years later, in 1995, they took a huge issue with Jadzia Dax and Lenara Kahn kissing in "Rejoined".

Wanting to be a Family Show worked against Star Trek being a Message Show. Sometimes a message has to be something people aren't going to be comfortable with. And if Rick Berman & Company were doing everything they could to make people feel comfortable, then how much of a message were they really delivering? How much were they really making the Average Person think about something they hadn't thought of before?

I think the real problem people have with "The Outcast" was that it could've been so much more. But the parameters TNG existed in stopped from happening before it even started. That's at least my issue with it.

I should just let you write before I do, cause you're obviously much better than me at expressing what I couldn't get across XD

My other issue is one that I had an issue with even when I was 12. While I don't consider myself to a different gender than what society thinks I'm "supposed to be", I do consider myself to be someone who doesn't fit into the mold of what society thinks I should be and I don't want to do what society thinks I'm "supposed to do" or become who it thinks I'm "supposed to be". I want to be myself. Not who society says it wants me to be. That society never did a damn thing for me, except spend the past 40 years trying to beat me down and break my will. And had I been a weaker person, society actually would've succeeded. So I understand the sentiment and can translate it into my own experience.

I think the real problem with "The Outcast" and the end of it is that it falls on the side of "You're going to be who society says they want you to be and there's nothing anyone can do about it." And I just don't agree with that at all.

Do we ever agree with the villains? They are bad cause they're bad
I've never heard of anybody having issues with BOBW cause the Borg take all your individuality and force you into a hive mind. The J'naii are the villains in this story, and that's why they do bad things.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Picard didn't really hide behind the Prime Directive. He looked the other way when he allowed Riker and Worf to try and rescue Soren in what was a very illegal move that could have easily gotten the Federation into a war.

Picard looked the other way when the J'naii brainwashed Soren into being genderless, and he expected Riker to do the same, for the good of his career.

 

[casey]

In my own experience with reparative therapy and restrictive religious environments I found that there is a certain level of just going along with it and pretending to be changed--partly out of wishful thinking, partly to fit in, and partly out of fear. This seems to be pretty common, given all of the high profile "success" stories that end up coming clean about the therapy not working.

That is why the episode was painful to me, because it portrayed Soren as if she were suddenly a different person. When I was younger it was painful because I knew it wasn't a realistic portrayal of reparative therapy that I wanted so desperately to work on me. Now it is painful to think it did work, which I am sure the writers intended, and a part of her identity was lost. Either way, it is painful. My head cannon on this is that it didn't work. Soren said what needed to be said to survive in an abusive and repressive society, for fear of losing everything she had ever known or loved. I think this episode deserves a follow up to see what became of Soren and the society. I suspect she just went deeper underground. Or killed herself. But if hope a follow up story would fix the mistakes of the episode and give her happy ending, not the bleak one I have imagined all these years.

I don't think Soren gave up. I mean she got arrested, If were talking about the ending that is because they already did the medical procedure on her and was basically lobotomized. That's why she is talking about how she was wrong and is now happy and all that stuff. She was no longer the same person anymore. Do people really think that during the ending she literally changed her views on a dime for no reason?

Jason

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

The problem is when it comes down to the character it affects. If Soren wants to fight to stay a woman and to be recognized as one, then why does she ultimately give up?

For me this feels very close to a current news story in Ireland where a report into what was essentially prisons for unmarried mothers operating in the middle of the 20th century found that all the women went there willingly and signed consent forms.

But the truth is if these women didn't sign up the shame of being pregnant would have seen them shunned and disowened by society and possibility homeless.
So maybe Soren was just resigned to it to save what was left of her life rather than gave up