Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x13 - "That Hope Is You, Part 2"

[ScottJ85]

I wonder how many fans are just hate-watching whatever the current series happens to be and only enjoying it in retrospect.

 

[NCC-73515]

I had to force myself through some TOS S3, DS9 S1-2, ENT S1-2, and TAS episodes...

 

[jackoverfull]

I wonder how many fans are just hate-watching whatever the current series happens to be and only enjoying it in retrospect.

quite probably zero point something. As much a certain part of the fan base would like to believe otherwise, opinions don’t change very often for most people.

 

[dupersuper]

Could we maybe assume that people who like the show aren't all betraying Roddenberrys vision and people who don't like the show aren't all contrarian "haters"? Also that there are plenty of people in the middle who like certain things/episodes and don't care for others, and assume the comments are made in good faith unless there's an actual reason to think otherwise? Too much of a Trek style utopia to hope for?

As I wrote, I'm referring to the series, not the movies. This is of course the major offender and the prime responsible for his reputation.

Styles even says that up to this point his career has stood for rationality.

Nilsson certainly seemed like a more likely candidate than Tilly for first officer. But then again who didn't?

Grudge?

The only grey thing Ross ever did was collaborate with section 31 that one time to install a Federation operative in the Romulan senate. Besides that he was 100% white hat.

Yes, "only" collaborated with a secret cabal within the Federation to frame an innocent person. Other than that, pure as the driven snow (except all the other missions he's almost sure to have carried out with Section 31).

 

[jackoverfull]

Could we maybe assume that people who like the show aren't all betraying Roddenberrys vision and people who don't like the show aren't all contrarian "haters"? Also that there are plenty of people in the middle who like certain things/episodes and don't care for others, and assume the comments are made in good faith unless there's an actual reason to think otherwise? Too much of a Trek style utopia to hope for?

i’d vote to take what you just wrote and pin it at the top of the forum. Thanks for your sensible words.

Styles even says that up to this point his career has stood for rationality.

good point.

 

[ScottJ85]

edit: On second thought let's not do this

 

[fireproof78]

Could we maybe assume that people who like the show aren't all betraying Roddenberrys vision and people who don't like the show aren't all contrarian "haters"? Also that there are plenty of people in the middle who like certain things/episodes and don't care for others, and assume the comments are made in good faith unless there's an actual reason to think otherwise? Too much of a Trek style utopia to hope for?

If I didn't hear the same talking points again and again then maybe. I would love to give most the benefit if the doubt. But, when I hear worst season/Star Trek ever then it becomes difficult. More than that, it begs the question of why are people watching as though they enjoy being miserable.

I truly think that most are in the middle. I just don't think the middle posts too much.

 

[jackoverfull]

If I didn't hear the same talking points again and again then maybe.

have you ever stopped considering that if several people independently came up with the same issues maybe, just maybe, those issues are relevant to them, no foul play involved?

 

[Lord Garth]

I would've liked if Osyraa had stuck around longer.

They killed her off too quick.

 

[fireproof78]

have you ever stopped considering that if several people independently came up with the same issues maybe, just maybe, those issues are relevant to them, no foul play involved?

I don't think otherwise. But, I do think that if you are encountering the same issues with a show again and again and again and again then maybe the show isn't for you. I truly want people to watch something they enjoy and if they keep coming back with the same complaints then it is hard not to think that some measure of enjoyment is derived from misery.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

have you ever stopped considering that if several people independently came up with the same issues maybe, just maybe, those issues are relevant to them, no foul play involved?

With the exception of the "box ticking" etc. people I think all criticism is valid if it actually related to the production, story or characters.

Problem is that some people with agendas piggyback on the legitimate criticism to attack characters who represent minorities or similar so it really comes down to remembering who the muppets are and stop responding to them. I say this knowing I am guilty of feeding trolls myself

 

[jackoverfull]

I don't think otherwise. But, I do think that if you are encountering the same issues with a show again and again and again and again then maybe the show isn't for you. I truly want people to watch something they enjoy and if they keep coming back with the same complaints then it is hard not to think that some measure of enjoyment is derived from misery.

But one can still enjoy a series while disliking some aspects or episodes. Heck, I went from 9 to 4 just considering the last two episodes!

With the exception of the "box ticking" etc. people I think all criticism is valid if it actually related to the production, story or characters.

Problem is that some people with agendas piggyback on the legitimate criticism to attack characters who represent minorities or similar so it really comes down to remembering who the muppets are and stop responding to them. I say this knowing I am guilty of feeding trolls myself

possibly...But I haven’t seen much of that in this forum lately.

 

[fireproof78]

But one can still enjoy a series while disliking some aspects or episodes. Heck, I went from 9 to 4 just considering the last two episodes!

I'll take your word for it.

 

[jackoverfull]

I'll take your word for it.

also keep in mind that many of us may remember their experience with Enterprise: for me, and, I gather, for others, the first two seasons were incredibly boring, the third a total trainwreck and the fourth was fantastic, giving some value to sticking to it for the previous three years (also, even in the first three seasons there were occasionally great episodes).
Some that are not liking Discovery at all might hope in a similar situation.

 

[Beckler]

Well... it is!

Maybe technically, but in practice it seems more like some random modern-style action show that happens to use star trek type terminology and logos. It's horrible sci-fi; it isn't creative or showing insightful or clever ideas about the future of humans, space exploration, technology. It's just dumb, fast-paced violence (between the idiotic 20-min empty dialog scenes) with boring characters*, random stories and a flashy budget. This thing should've been cancelled faster than ENT.

*The single exception to this of course being Tilly - the show's only redeeming element, so far.

 

[Lord Garth]

also keep in mind that many of us may remember their experience with Enterprise: for me, and, I gather, for others, the first two seasons were incredibly boring, the third a total trainwreck and the fourth was fantastic, giving some value to sticking to it for the previous three years (also, even in the first three seasons there were occasionally great episodes).
Some that are not liking Discovery at all might hope in a similar situation.

My summary of the ENT Seasons as a Non-ENT Fan. As someone who stopped watching it six episodes in, then binged it once in 2010, and binged it again in 2020, and the only time I ever revisited it in-between was to re-watch "In a Mirror, Darkly" in 2018.

ENT Season 1: Okay
ENT Season 2: Dull, dull, dull
ENT Season 3: It had its ups and downs.
ENT Season 4: I liked it. Just not as much as other series at their best.
Overall: I still think this is pretty much Bush Trek.

My opinion of the series over the course of its run didn't change too dramatically. I think people who feel the same about DSC that I do about ENT will end up in the same position. Realistically.

Take whatever idea you had about how things went with TNG and get it out of your head. That's not going to happen.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Maybe technically, but in practice it seems more like some random modern-style action show that happens to use star trek type terminology and logos. It's horrible sci-fi; it isn't creative or showing insightful or clever ideas about the future of humans, space exploration, technology. It's just dumb, fast-paced violence (between the idiotic 20-min empty dialog scenes) with boring characters*, random stories and a flashy budget. This thing should've been cancelled faster than ENT.

*The single exception to this of course being Tilly - the show's only redeeming element, so far.

Interesting that you love Tilly but hate the rest of the show.
Nothing wrong with that of course but she is usually on of the main targets for complaint from people who don't like the show

 

[jackoverfull]

My summary of the ENT Seasons as a Non-ENT Fan. As someone who stopped watching it six episodes in, then binged it once in 2010, and binged it again in 2020, and the only time I ever revisited it in-between was to re-watch "In a Mirror, Darkly" in 2018.

ENT Season 1: Okay
ENT Season 2: Dull, dull, dull
ENT Season 3: It had its ups and downs.
ENT Season 4: I liked it. Just not as much as other series at their best.
Overall: I still think this is pretty much Bush Trek.

My opinion of the series over the course of its run didn't change too dramatically. I think people who feel the same about DSC that I do about ENT will end up in the same position. Realistically.

Take whatever idea you had about how things went with TNG and get it out of your head. That's not going to happen.

agreed: I don’t think many people that don’t like the show now will like it in 15 years.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

My summary of the ENT Seasons as a Non-ENT Fan. As someone who stopped watching it six episodes in, then binged it once in 2010, and binged it again in 2020, and the only time I ever revisited it in-between was to re-watch "In a Mirror, Darkly" in 2018.

ENT Season 1: Okay
ENT Season 2: Dull, dull, dull
ENT Season 3: It had its ups and downs.
ENT Season 4: I liked it. Just not as much as other series at their best.
Overall: I still think this is pretty much Bush Trek.

My opinion of the series over the course of its run didn't change too dramatically. I think people who feel the same about DSC that I do about ENT will end up in the same position. Realistically.

Take whatever idea you had about how things went with TNG and get it out of your head. That's not going to happen.

Despite all the things I don't like about Discovery I still see avenues it can go down or places it can explore to entertain me. ENT on the other hand was a lackluster show with a lack of really strong leads in comparison to other Trek and was released at the end of a long run of Berman Trek.
It is to date the only Trek I full on just couldn't muster the energy to watch. So I don't think Discovery will ever become the perfect show for me but I also think it has more to keep.me interested than ENT ever had

 

[fireproof78]

also keep in mind that many of us may remember their experience with Enterprise: for me, and, I gather, for others, the first two seasons were incredibly boring, the third a total trainwreck and the fourth was fantastic, giving some value to sticking to it for the previous three years (also, even in the first three seasons there were occasionally great episodes).
Some that are not liking Discovery at all might hope in a similar situation.

Well, hope springth eternal in fandom I guess. But, I sincerely believe people are setting up to be disappointed. The biggest complaint I hear is around Michael Burnham and she isn't going anywhere so I don't see a positive path for those who don't like her.

Take whatever idea you had about how things went with TNG and get it out of your head. That's not going to happen.

Indeed. The TNG/Roddenberry box is long gone and good riddance.