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DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

Devil's advocate:

It's a movie fundamentally about separating Superman from humanity, showing us how superior and above ordinary people he is, always would have been, and always will be by virtue of his birth. About turning him into an otherworldly messiah, rather than the best of US.

Well that did seem to directly be the intention with The Dark Knight, that Batman was, or rather became, better that what we deserved, instead what we needed.

I think the previous versions also showed Superman as being pretty better and very different from the city-dwellers, albeit also more mutually charmed, so the different take on the Kents seems the big difference.

Physical strength, the ability to dominate your enemy, is the only true virtue. Superman doesn't win because of his morals, because of his dedication, because of he selflessness. He doesn't win because he's righteous, or virtuous. He wins because he's physically more capable than Zod, beats him into submission and then murders him. Might AS right. It's utterly, distressingly authoritarian.

In the previous movie version he wins because of cunning as well as reading Luthor and Zod particularly well to trick them.
 
post: said:
it’s the first movie of its kind to in any sense own up to how a few lovely exceptions aside, on a grand scale the world for the most part won’t accept the different, won’t give the benefit of the doubt after a thousand times a hero has proved their worth, and won’t reward you for your effort on even the basest level beyond the understanding that you did what was necessary to keep the world spinning.

That is a rather Marvel (comics) take on Superman, that superheroes suffer a lot of tragedies and tend to be very unappreciated and feared which leads to hostility, also expressed in both Raimi's Spider-Man (briefly) and TDK that especially with that it's easy for the public to turn against you, consider you a villain and there is a lot of temptation to become at least less noble.

Edit: Also not unprecedented even earlier. "Superman didn't even do anything."
 
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He'll be fine. I'm sure he can climb out with a broken hand and injured spine. He probably dodged when Non came hurling down at him. ;)
So it’s even worse than I’d remembered. Not only does Superman kill Zod, Lois kills Ursa. And, even if we consider the possibility the Kryptonians didn’t die in their respective falls, Superman’s destruction of the Fortress was certainly fatal—and to Luthor as well. :eek:

:whistle:
 
Do you mean Superman 2? Superman killed Zod in that movie too

Open to interpretation, he could have just dropped him to a semi-bottomless pit, to be imprisoned or maybe somehow sent back to the zone, or yes he did kill him, thought the risk was too great that the powers could be restored.
 
Open to interpretation, he could have just dropped him to a semi-bottomless pit, to be imprisoned or maybe somehow sent back to the zone, or yes he did kill him, thought the risk was too great that the powers could be restored.
What's a "semi-bottomless pit"? ;)
 
Well that did seem to directly be the intention with The Dark Knight, that Batman was, or rather became, better that what we deserved, instead what we needed.

Wow, I think that's getting it completely backward. He didn't become better -- he became obsolete. That was the thrust of the first two films. The idea was that Batman was a stopgap -- an imperfect but necessary emergency measure to bring hope back to a totally broken and corrupt city, but not a real solution in the long term. The idea in The Dark Knight was that the people and government of Gotham were rebuilding to the point that they could take care of law and justice for themselves, so that Batman was no longer needed. Bruce saw Harvey as a better symbol than Batman, because he was a symbol of real justice and functional social order, rather than vigilante justice as a check against chaos. And when the people of Gotham proved that they would stand up for what was right rather than giving into the Joker's mind games, that proved that they could take responsibility for their own law and order, that they were a functional society again and Batman had become unnecessary, except as a symbol of the lawlessness they had now transcended. That was what Gordon's closing line meant -- the people needed to stop seeing Batman as a hero, to outgrow their dependence on him, in order to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.

One of the third film's many weaknesses is that it basically tore down that story arc in order to justify bringing Batman back once more. I think the story would've worked better if it had ended with the second film. Really, why does Hollywood have this obsession with doing everything in threes?


Do you mean Superman 2? Superman killed Zod in that movie too

That wasn't the intent. There was a deleted scene showing the depowered villains being driven away by some arctic patrol or other.
 
What's a "semi-bottomless pit"? ;)

Deep enough to look bottomless, but it has a bottom but reaching it doesn't kill you ;)

Wow, I think that's getting it completely backward. He didn't become better -- he became obsolete. That was the thrust of the first two films. The idea was that Batman was a stopgap -- an imperfect but necessary emergency measure to bring hope back to a totally broken and corrupt city, but not a real solution in the long term. The idea in The Dark Knight was that the people and government of Gotham were rebuilding to the point that they could take care of law and justice for themselves, so that Batman was no longer needed. Bruce saw Harvey as a better symbol than Batman, because he was a symbol of real justice and functional social order, rather than vigilante justice as a check against chaos. And when the people of Gotham proved that they would stand up for what was right rather than giving into the Joker's mind games, that proved that they could take responsibility for their own law and order, that they were a functional society again and Batman had become unnecessary, except as a symbol of the lawlessness they had now transcended. That was what Gordon's closing line meant -- the people needed to stop seeing Batman as a hero, to outgrow their dependence on him, in order to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.

I thought the thrust of the film was more, despite Batman wanting to step aside and the public resisting that temptation, that Batman (and the Joker) would be going on forever.
 
One of the third film's many weaknesses is that it basically tore down that story arc in order to justify bringing Batman back once more. I think the story would've worked better if it had ended with the second film. Really, why does Hollywood have this obsession with doing everything in threes?

Nolan was always going to make a 3rd movie though, wasn't he?

I mean, wasn't his original idea for the 3rd movie to wrap things up with Joker and have Two-Face be the villain? That would have been more effective than how Two-Face was wasted in the end of Dark Knight and that really rushed "Oh wow if people find out Harvey went crazy it will kill Gotham" ending.
 
I thought the thrust of the film was more, despite Batman wanting to step aside and the public resisting that temptation, that Batman (and the Joker) would be going on forever.

I think that's taking the Joker's line at their climactic confrontation out of context. I'm talking about the overall narrative throughline of both films. The first two films together tell a complete story about Batman bringing Gotham out of the depths of corruption and restoring it to the point of being a functional society again, rendering his brand of vigilante justice unnecessary anymore. Batman was a rough solution for a lawless time, but not a functional solution for a healthy society.

Ever since the Batman: Year One reboot, the idea behind Batman has been that he's necessary because Gotham's own government and police are too corrupt. (Frank Miller basically turned Batman into the Green Hornet.) So it follows that a healthy Gotham purged of corruption would no longer need Batman. Batman's true victory would be to render himself obsolete, and that's basically where he ended up in TDK. But TDKR had to tear it all down and reset things to where they were in the first movie in order to bring Batman back again.
 
Wow, I didn't realize Janet Kidder, who plays Osyraa on Star Trek: Discovery, looks so much her aunt.
Wow! You just opened my eyes. I have watched her on Discovery and apparently on Arrow and never knew her name or that she was Margot Kidder’s niece. I met Margot twice. It’s understandable how I did not notice under the green makeup. But now that I do know the resemblance is hard miss under makeup.
 
No, Zach Snyder was the worst director anyone could have hired for the film

Nope.

Whedon as a film maker is much more skilled then Snyder in literally every way possible

Whedon dumped his cartoon crap on JL and destroyed it (and the solid DC EU Snyder established). That is called hard evidence, and it cannot be erased or rewritten.
 
Even though stuff, which we still don't even know the details of, did happen on set, there were still better ways he could have gone about all of this. It just makes him look like he can't handle things not being perfect, and will bring even the slightest grievance out into the public. So yeah, not exactly the greatest look when you're just starting out.
"Stuff" was investigated, with WarnerMedia supporting Fisher's claims and a right to express himself, no matter how many Whedon defenders (not meaning you) hand wave his history of despicable actions just because they are fans of his work, while relentlessly beating on / refusing to believe Fisher. Fascinating--the victim is not to be believed here because...reasons..
 
Yeah, I think trying to still debate Fisher v Whedon at this point has a bit of fanboy-ish desperation to it. Clearly, Whedon did a lot wrong while working with the cast and crew of JL, as not only the investigation showed, but also comments from Momoa, Gadot, and others who definitely are more experienced than the freshman Ray Fisher and can distinguish between what's just stress and what's over the line.

This latest bit, though, is about Hamada, and solely based on his handling of the situation. Now, Fisher claims Hamada tried to protect Geoff Johns, which I'm inclined to believe, seeing as how Johns has been one of the biggest creators in DC media for the past two decades, he's not only one of the biggest writers on the comics front, but also a producer on Titans, Doom Patrol and Stargirl, as well as head writer of the latter. And Hamada was not on set for JL, he wasn't even involved with DC Films until well after the theatrical release of JL. He wasn't witness to any behaviour of Geoff Johns on set, he had only other people's stories to go on. So, here, it is not as clear cut. Maybe Johns did behave inexcusably towards Fisher and the others. Maybe Hamada was wrong about Johns. But the question is, was Hamada's own behaviour so inexcusable that Fisher refusing to work with him again is justified, and that I'm not sure of. Not if it didn't go far beyond what Fisher himself said about Hamada.
 
Did he said Johns was behaving badly too? I thought it was just that he and the other higher ups, didn't do anything about Whedon's behavior.
 
I'd have to go back to look up specifics, but one thing I definitely remember being one of Fisher's complaints was that Johns would gleefully tell him that they'd introduce a different Cyborg on Doom Patrol. Which, to be quite honest, could be just a misinterpretation of a courtesy call, these kinds of misreading intent happen all the time. But then, it didn't seem to happen in a vacuum, either.

In any event, Fisher's latest grievance is with Hamada and his perceived covering for Johns.
 
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