When (Ally McBeal creator) David E. Kelley was linked to a tv version of Wonder Woman, I said that he should do She-Hulk.
Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread
- Thread starter bbjeg
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Which sounds like the Dan Slott or Charles Soule run on the comic. Both of those focused on Jen's work as a lawyer, with a comedic tone. And Maslany's Instagram post is a cover from the Soule run, suggesting that might be the inspiration.
Except his version of Wonder Woman was terrible, an insult to the character, demonstrating a fundamental misunderstanding of and contempt toward superheroes. I hate to think what he would've turned She-Hulk into.
It was terrible. Which was why I think he was wrong for WW (who he made a lawyer). But he has also since made Big Little Lies, Goliath, The Undoing and Mr Mercedes, all of which were good, some of which were excellent. None of which were anything like his Wonder Woman pilot. Which, if anything, seemed to suffer at least in part because he was trying to make a super heroic Ally McBeal. But given that the makers of the She-Hulk tv show are specifically naming his show as an influence on theirs, I think I may just have had a point about his suitability for her.
I mean, Joss Whedon’s WW script wasn't exactly great but that didn’t stop Marvel hiring him for a couple of fairly important and successful films.
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First off, Kelley did not make Diana a lawyer, he made her a corporate CEO. Second, the problem was not the civilian job he gave her. The problem was the horrible, tone-deaf depiction of what it meant to be a superhero. He turned Wonder Woman into a brutal vigilante who scoffed at laws and civil rights and tortured suspects for information even though she had the Lasso of Truth. The whole thing (at least as much as I saw before I turned it off in disgust) felt like a take on superheroes by someone who had a jaundiced, condescending, and badly misinformed view of what superheroes were. It was one of those genre works where you can tell that the creator is unfamiliar with the genre and didn't care enough to do their homework, instead just basing it on their preconceptions from the outside looking in.
And Whedon proved in those films that he understood what superheroes are about, which is saving lives, not being bullying thugs. And he proved that he understood the universe and its characters. It's not a question of quality. David E. Kelley has certainly made a lot of quality TV, and my father was a big fan of his work. It's a question of understanding and respecting the material. Whedon does; Kelley didn't. So I wouldn't trust him with any comic book superhero adaptation, even one about a funny female lawyer. He'd get the "Ally McBeal" stuff okay, but I don't think he'd do the superhero stuff right.
Her screen appearances show no evidence of being a leader of a team. In the run up to and in the first Avengers movie, despite Stark's involvement, Fury always wanted Cap to lead the team because he has that kind of experience unlike anyone else. Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, and the others did not (and Black Widow would not at east until the end of Age of Ultron, where she's more involved in the Avengers training / leader role). Of the surviving Avengers, Sam and/or Bucky--both from the Rogers mold in their own way--would be the most natural candidates to lead a new Avengers.
Jeez, calm down, we’re talking about a leaked pilot from nearly a decade ago that never went to air, forgive me if I forget the details of it. You’re the one who often points out that first drafts of or artistic works don’t often reflect the final version of it, so maybe that would’ve been the case here.
But we won’t know because it’s a hypothetical discussion and it’s, you know, a Wonder Woman show, not a She-Hulk one. Jon Favreau mixed cowboys and aliens in a film of that name, which was mauled by fans and critics alike, before making a space western in the form of The Mandalorian, which has been quite the success. Bryan Singer’s X-Men films were much better received than his Superman film, all the stuff that worked for Tim Burton’s Batman would’ve made him wrong (IMHO) for Superman, John Logan came a cropper with Star Trek but hit it out of the park with James Bond, JJ Abrams Superman script nearly burnt down the internet but most people seemed to like his Star Trek, etc etc. Horses for courses. She-Hulk, certainly as I’ve ever seen her, is pretty much a Kelley character (from his Ally, the Practice, Boston Legal run) with superpowers.
But like I say, it’s a hypothetical discussion, so feel free to disagree. Happy Christmas!
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My anger is directed at the pilot, not at you.
That's about differences in detail and execution. If it had been a case where you could tell that the creators understood and cared about the subject matter but simply stumbled a bit in pulling it off, then that would apply. But the flaws in the WW pilot show a basic misunderstanding and contempt toward the entire concept of superheroes, and a lack of interest in doing the work to correct it. As I said, in some works you can tell that the creator just doesn't understand the genre.
Turning She-Hulk into a Punisher-like vigilante who tortures criminals for fun would be just as wrong as turning Wonder Woman into that.
Which would be fine if David E. Kelley understood and respected what it meant to have superpowers. As I already said, of course I believe he could get the non-superhero side of Jen's character right, but I have no faith in his ability to get the superhero side right. And you can't do She-Hulk right without both sides. The appeal of the Slott and Soule runs on the comic was the way they balanced Jen's legal life with her superhero life in interesting ways, exploring how superpowers and comic-book weirdness would affect the work of lawyers and what kind of novel legal issues would arise from them. But that requires respecting and caring about the wild, silly comic-book stuff enough to engage with those kinds of questions and extract those nuances from the continuity.
Agreed with all of this except one part: I'm one of the few people who unapologetically, unironically, and absolutely loves Cowboys and Aliens.
That and I don't like Abrams' take on Star Trek.
Was it She-Hulk who had an actual ex-lawyer as a writer for a while? I remember reading an interview with someone who was writing one of their books talking how they were able to use their law experience to give a more accurate look at that side of the character's life.
Yes, that was Soule.
A lot of these comics are available for free on the Hoopla digital library, as long as you have a card with a participating library system. That's where I read them. They've got various different iterations of She-Hulk, including the classic John Byrne run where she was a Deadpool-like character who knew she was in a comic book and made constant metatextual wisecracks (which I own the first 8-issue collection of but never found the rest of until this year), the Slott and Soule runs that downplayed that aspect and focused on her legal work (though the Slott run found another, very clever way to be meta about comics), and the recent Mariko Tamaki run that took a more serious turn after she went through a trauma that turned her into a Gray Hulk.
A lot of these comics are available for free on the Hoopla digital library, as long as you have a card with a participating library system. That's where I read them. They've got various different iterations of She-Hulk, including the classic John Byrne run where she was a Deadpool-like character who knew she was in a comic book and made constant metatextual wisecracks (which I own the first 8-issue collection of but never found the rest of until this year), the Slott and Soule runs that downplayed that aspect and focused on her legal work (though the Slott run found another, very clever way to be meta about comics), and the recent Mariko Tamaki run that took a more serious turn after she went through a trauma that turned her into a Gray Hulk.
I certainly didn't love it, but I didn't hate it either. It had cowboys. It had aliens. You certainly can't complain you didn't get what it said on the tin...
OK, thanks.
I've been about half of my comics reading through Hoopla since I found it earlier this year. I quit my job last year and haven't gotten a new one yet, so Hoopla has really helped me save a lot of money.
Not so much speculation, but a question.
I've just rewatched both Homecoming and Spiderverse. Spiderverse got me thinking : the Marvel comic universe is reality 616 and the MCU is apparently reality 199999. The Spidey movies are obviously set in the MCU and are apparently about to start crossing over with Venom and the other Sony live action movies, thereby positioning them in reality 199999 too. The other earlier Spidey movies presumably have their own numbered realities too. As should the X Men and FF movies.
Spiderverse and specifically Miles' reality is not the MCU. I know it's based on the Ultimate universe and the universes of Spider Ham, Spider Gwen, Noir and the others, and you see their numbers displayed on a monitor in the movie. They're the realities given in the comics.
So we have a situation where the MCU is a different reality to the comics, but the Sony animated movies look to be set in the same realities as the comics. Which seems both a bit odd and problematic regarding continuity.
Have I got that right ?
I've just rewatched both Homecoming and Spiderverse. Spiderverse got me thinking : the Marvel comic universe is reality 616 and the MCU is apparently reality 199999. The Spidey movies are obviously set in the MCU and are apparently about to start crossing over with Venom and the other Sony live action movies, thereby positioning them in reality 199999 too. The other earlier Spidey movies presumably have their own numbered realities too. As should the X Men and FF movies.
Spiderverse and specifically Miles' reality is not the MCU. I know it's based on the Ultimate universe and the universes of Spider Ham, Spider Gwen, Noir and the others, and you see their numbers displayed on a monitor in the movie. They're the realities given in the comics.
So we have a situation where the MCU is a different reality to the comics, but the Sony animated movies look to be set in the same realities as the comics. Which seems both a bit odd and problematic regarding continuity.
Have I got that right ?
Movie and TV adaptations are under no obligation to use the same universe numbering used by wikis and the like. A lot of different Marvel adaptations refer to their universe as Earth-616, just as a lot of different DC adaptations refer to theirs as Earth-1. In fact, didn't Mysterio say in Far from Home that the MCU was Earth-616? Of course, his claims turned out to be false, but it just goes to show that the numbers are just storytellers' in-jokes, not some actual, universally accepted guideline.
I suppose it's inevitable that the adaptations will use the existing designations, creating in the process alternate 616's etc.
In universe it's a surprise that there's an agreed numbering system anyway.
I believe it was originally meant to be some specific alternate-universe group's labeling system, which was why the main Marvel Earth was 616 instead of 1. But later writers picked up on it and used it more generally.
One of the little news bits included in Io9's Morning is that an Indian clothing company has revealed new descriptions for The Eternals characters. The story is the fifth one down, but here's the descriptions if you don't feel like going through the whole article.
Who makes up the Eternals team you ask?
Ikaris is the tactical leader and most powerful Eternal and takes pride in keeping the other Eternals safe. Moral, kind and charismatic, Ikaris boasts the power of incredible strength, flight and the ability to project beams of intense cosmic energy from his eyes. When the monstrous Deviants return after centuries, Ikaris leads the charge to unite the scattered Eternals to stop the new threat. You bet we’ll have some Ikaris t-shirts available as well!
Sersi is the Eternal with an affinity for humanity. Sersi is as happy working as a museum curator as she is saving humans from the threat of the Deviants. Sersi has the ability to manipulate matter, changing the makeup of any non-sentient material she touches. She’s also been in love with Ikaris for centuries, and helps him to recruit the Eternals for one last mission.
Ajak is the spiritual leader of the Eternals. Her wisdom has helped guide the team since they arrived here from their home planet to help defend humanity from the Deviants and to help humans advance to the modern civilization that they live in today. Ajak can not only heal humans and Eternals alike, but she is able to communicate with the Celestials as well.
Phastos is blessed with the power of invention. He is able to create whatever he can imagine provided that he has enough raw materials at his disposal. Over the centuries, Phastos has helped nudge humanity forward technologically while always keeping his brilliance hidden in the shadows.
Makkari is the fastest woman in the universe. She uses her cosmically powered super-speed to scout planets for the Eternals, and as the only deaf Eternal, the sonic boom that accompanies her cosmic running does not affect her.
Phew, that’s only one half of the team that will feature on our Eternals t-shirts! The rest of the team includes:
Druig can use cosmic energy to control the minds of men. Druig has become withdrawn from the other Eternals because he disagrees with how they’ve interacted with mankind over the centuries. Aloof and powerful, at times it’s hard to determine whether he’s friend of foe.
Gilgamesh is the strongest and kindest member of the team. He becomes Thena’s de facto partner when the events of the past exile them from the rest of the team. Capable of projecting a powerful exoskeleton of cosmic energy, Gilgamesh is a fierce warrior who has become legendary for his fights with Deviants throughout history.
Thena, a fierce warrior more comfortable in battle than any other place, she has the ability to use cosmic energy to form any handheld weapon she can think of. Often surly and aloof, she forges an unlikely friendship with Gilgamesh that spans centuries.
Kingo is the Eternal with the power to project cosmic energy projectiles with his hands. Over the centuries, he has become enamored with the idea of fame. In present day, he’s a famous Bollywood star who must leave his life of wealth and celebrity to help the team repel the new Deviant threat.
And finally, Sprite - who appears to be a 12-year old girl, Sprite has the ability to cast lifelike illusions. Her friendship with Sersi hides a world-weary sadness because she’s been treated like a child by humanity for centuries. But Sprite is much stronger and cleverer than she appears, which will come in handy as while they battle with the Deviants.
Who makes up the Eternals team you ask?
Ikaris is the tactical leader and most powerful Eternal and takes pride in keeping the other Eternals safe. Moral, kind and charismatic, Ikaris boasts the power of incredible strength, flight and the ability to project beams of intense cosmic energy from his eyes. When the monstrous Deviants return after centuries, Ikaris leads the charge to unite the scattered Eternals to stop the new threat. You bet we’ll have some Ikaris t-shirts available as well!
Sersi is the Eternal with an affinity for humanity. Sersi is as happy working as a museum curator as she is saving humans from the threat of the Deviants. Sersi has the ability to manipulate matter, changing the makeup of any non-sentient material she touches. She’s also been in love with Ikaris for centuries, and helps him to recruit the Eternals for one last mission.
Ajak is the spiritual leader of the Eternals. Her wisdom has helped guide the team since they arrived here from their home planet to help defend humanity from the Deviants and to help humans advance to the modern civilization that they live in today. Ajak can not only heal humans and Eternals alike, but she is able to communicate with the Celestials as well.
Phastos is blessed with the power of invention. He is able to create whatever he can imagine provided that he has enough raw materials at his disposal. Over the centuries, Phastos has helped nudge humanity forward technologically while always keeping his brilliance hidden in the shadows.
Makkari is the fastest woman in the universe. She uses her cosmically powered super-speed to scout planets for the Eternals, and as the only deaf Eternal, the sonic boom that accompanies her cosmic running does not affect her.
Phew, that’s only one half of the team that will feature on our Eternals t-shirts! The rest of the team includes:
Druig can use cosmic energy to control the minds of men. Druig has become withdrawn from the other Eternals because he disagrees with how they’ve interacted with mankind over the centuries. Aloof and powerful, at times it’s hard to determine whether he’s friend of foe.
Gilgamesh is the strongest and kindest member of the team. He becomes Thena’s de facto partner when the events of the past exile them from the rest of the team. Capable of projecting a powerful exoskeleton of cosmic energy, Gilgamesh is a fierce warrior who has become legendary for his fights with Deviants throughout history.
Thena, a fierce warrior more comfortable in battle than any other place, she has the ability to use cosmic energy to form any handheld weapon she can think of. Often surly and aloof, she forges an unlikely friendship with Gilgamesh that spans centuries.
Kingo is the Eternal with the power to project cosmic energy projectiles with his hands. Over the centuries, he has become enamored with the idea of fame. In present day, he’s a famous Bollywood star who must leave his life of wealth and celebrity to help the team repel the new Deviant threat.
And finally, Sprite - who appears to be a 12-year old girl, Sprite has the ability to cast lifelike illusions. Her friendship with Sersi hides a world-weary sadness because she’s been treated like a child by humanity for centuries. But Sprite is much stronger and cleverer than she appears, which will come in handy as while they battle with the Deviants.
