Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x09 - "Terra Firma, Part 1"

[fireproof78]

I don't know why anyone has any sympathy for her or wants her around.

Because she's a person and grew up in an environment that didn't allow for her to be a positive person. Now she has an opportunity to change.

Change on this level fascinates me. I don't know if it is sympathy but it is something that I love seeing unpacked in a drama.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Carl does sort of recontextualizes the Guardian of Forever quite a bit.

In TOS, the Guardian appears to be in ruins, sending out ripples to draw the Enterprise in to investigate. It has been waiting for a question, and seems to be just an advanced computer willing to answer anything and send the crew anywhere regardless of the outcome. It doesn't seem capable of changing the order in which it presents events, although this is debatable based on information from TAS.

In Discovery, Carl can appear at will (although he is detectable by lifesign readings), and is on a desolate planet in the middle of nowhere. He speaks in puns, in jokes, and appears to be an old man reading a newspaper straight out of 1930s America for some reason. He has a portal through time and universes (or at least Georgiou's mind) that he can control at will, sending people into their own consciousness apparently (a la Q's illusion in All Good Things...).

They seem to be two wholly different creatures with wholly different powers, but the self-epithet "the Guardian of Forever" does imply a much more powerful creature than TCOTEOF presented us (and more respectable of the timeline than the Guardian's blasé attitude showed). With Carl, Terra Firma shows us a being who is acting much more like one would expect the Guardian of Forever to act.

I'm assuming that Terra Firma 2 will give us the actual Guardian reveal and explain away some of the perceived inconsistencies. Burnham and company don't know anything about the Guardian of Forever, but Vance and co. should know all about it from their historical databases when it was used for a couple years at least for time travel research.

 

[Jadeb]

I had bigger issues with the play that Stamets was narrating. The Terran Empire seems to have a concept of evil? I thought it "beyond" in a Nietzschean sense. If they define evil, they must define good as well...which raises the question what good is. If the Terran Empire was a bog-standard evil empire you could say something like "loyalty to the Terran Empire." But Terrans are sociopaths who believe that whatever you can successfully reach for, you should get - meaning even betraying the Emperor is fine as long as you aim for the king and don't miss.

Perhaps there's some twisted logic about loyalty like "The Empire is best served by advancing myself in it." That way everything remains egocentric even as individuals function within a larger organization.

Truth be told, it's not that different than how most workplaces function in our world.

 

[fireproof78]

Perhaps there's some twisted logic about loyalty like "The Empire is best served by advancing myself in it." That way everything remains egocentric even as individuals function within a larger organization.

Truth be told, it's not that different than how most workplaces function in our world.

That would be the logic. By advancing myself I advance the interest of the Empire. By advancing the Empire I advance my self-interest.

 

[NCC-73515]

He was lying. There was no reason to be up in arms about the potential reuse of the Guardian of Forever.

What I am saying is that the fact there is/may be a/the Guardian is immaterial. His argument was that the use of the Guardian motif is unconscionable, and must be met with extreme opposition or hostility. He was not just wrong, he was lying.

You've seen Part 2, which he was referring to? Tell us about it!

Anyone else get a slightly shady vibe from Saru when he dismissed everyone from his ready room after viewing the distress call? Is he scared the Kelpians caused the Burn? Does he have an idea he doesn't want to share yet? Something just seemed a bit off to me there.

She reminded him so much of his sister that he wanted to be alone with her

If I am not mistaken in the Beta canon the Terran Empire is the result of a Western Roman Empire that never fell.

She is called Daughter of Rome in this episode.

Also, the art deco 'Metropolis' look of the Mirror universe costuming really works for me. That hadn't clicked with me before.

The MU never looked better! The TOS and ENT episodes were good, but only had minor design changes. These costumes and sets are appropriately imperial!

 

[cooleddie74]

Kind of how the Sith operate and are expected to operate. Your apprentice is expected to make a move against you once they accumulate enough power and knowledge and that's how new Masters are created and new apprentices are often acquired. It might seem like a self-defeating system from the outside but it's remarkably self-sustaining as power begets power and those seeking it provide a constant source of new fuel.

 

[Lord Garth]

I forgot to mention this earlier:

Captain Killy, Mirror Burnham, and the ISS Discovery were all things I wished we saw somehow back in Season 1. I'm glad we finally got to see them here. All we need now is Lorca. Added bonus if we get to see Prime Lorca too.

EDIT: I think that's just about it. I'll get out before the thread eventually heats up like they all do. I don't need (or want) to go through all the usual motions.

 

[Yistaan]

Kind of how the Sith operate and are expected to operate. Your apprentice is expected to make a move against you once they accumulate enough power and knowledge and that's how new Masters are created and new apprentices are often acquired. It might seem like a self-defeating system from the outside but it's remarkably self-sustaining as power begets power and those seeking it provide a constant source of new fuel.

Except even George Lucas outright said that an entire organization based on such a philosophy (the Sith before the Rule of Two) was completely ineffective and they all killed each other except for Darth Bane, who henceforth mandated only 2 Sith at a time.

If anything, Star Wars lore outright shows that the Terran Empire is a self defeating system because they are basically pre-Rule of Two Sith, who were defeated.

 

[Fateor]

Carl does sort of recontextualizes the Guardian of Forever quite a bit.

In TOS, the Guardian appears to be in ruins, sending out ripples to draw the Enterprise in to investigate. It has been waiting for a question, and seems to be just an advanced computer willing to answer anything and send the crew anywhere regardless of the outcome. It doesn't seem capable of changing the order in which it presents events, although this is debatable based on information from TAS.

In Discovery, Carl can appear at will (although he is detectable by lifesign readings), and is on a desolate planet in the middle of nowhere. He speaks in puns, in jokes, and appears to be an old man reading a newspaper straight out of 1930s America for some reason. He has a portal through time and universes (or at least Georgiou's mind) that he can control at will, sending people into their own consciousness apparently (a la Q's illusion in All Good Things...).

They seem to be two wholly different creatures with wholly different powers, but the self-epithet "the Guardian of Forever" does imply a much more powerful creature than TCOTEOF presented us (and more respectable of the timeline than the Guardian's blasé attitude showed). With Carl, Terra Firma shows us a being who is acting much more like one would expect the Guardian of Forever to act.

I'm assuming that Terra Firma 2 will give us the actual Guardian reveal and explain away some of the perceived inconsistencies. Burnham and company don't know anything about the Guardian of Forever, but Vance and co. should know all about it from their historical databases when it was used for a couple years at least for time travel research.

If it is the Guardian I can't help but feel people might be making a fundamental mistake.

And that mistake is assuming it's the same Guardian seen in the Original Series.

After all, the Guardian was a machine, and the thing about machines, is that you can build more then one of them. And being a machine, it's perfectly possible this Guardian is just more operational then the one we saw before.

 

[NCC-73515]

Except even George Lucas outright said that an entire organization based on such a philosophy (the Sith before the Rule of Two) was completely ineffective and they all killed each other except for Darth Bane, who henceforth mandated only 2 Sith at a time.

If anything, Star Wars lore outright shows that the Terran Empire is a self defeating system because they are basically pre-Rule of Two Sith, who were defeated.

WORF: The Klingon system has operated successfully for centuries.

After all, the Guardian was a machine, and the thing about machines, is that you can build more then one of them. And being a machine, it's perfectly possible this Guardian is just more operational then the one we saw before.

He is both and neither machine and/or being.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

You've seen Part 2, which he was referring to? Tell us about it!

Sure, anything can happen. However, that's not the crux of Burnett's argument, is it? He argues, in his tweets, that the Guardian of Forever is sacrosanct--no series would dare to go there, except Discovery, and ruin it. He is basically claiming ownership of Star Trek that he really does not deserve.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah, even during the more "honorable" days of Klingon history alluded to by Kolos the defense attorney in ENT the High Council and the Emperor(pre-21st century) operated according to power struggles and intrigue.

 

[arch101]

I didn't realize how sick I was of the MU until we were in it again. I sincerely hope that, after this is wrapped up, we move on and never see the MU in Disc again.
Certain this is the GoF. The newspaper is the dead giveaway. I can only assume the interface is the result of 900 years of working with Federation species like humans. After all, it looked in CotEoF like nobody had interacted with it in millennia. It's probably a pretty intuitive computer.
Agree that Lorca MUST be back next week. It would be stupid to get this far into the MU story and NOT have him appear. Unless, of course, this is right where he beams to Buran and gets zapped to the PU.

 

[eschaton]

Yeah, even during the more "honorable" days of Klingon history alluded to by Kolos the defense attorney in ENT the High Council and the Emperor(pre-21st century) operated according to power struggles and intrigue.

The ruling class can do these sort of things of course. But there needs to be a class of capable civil servants below them who...you know...do things like operate water purification systems without spending excessive periods of time plotting and scheming murder.

 

[NCC-73515]

Sure, anything can happen. However, that's not the crux of Burnett's argument, is it? He argues, in his tweets, that the Guardian of Forever is sacrosanct--no series would dare to go there, except Discovery, and ruin it. He is basically claiming ownership of Star Trek that he really does not deserve.

Perhaps Part 2 will show something insane that changes COTEOF in some way that TOS fans go crazy about - like (wild speculation) Rodent didn't die and is actually Carl now, the GoF was not the 'real' Guardian, cause that's Carl, or Edith's death led to the Prime universe and her living on led to the Mirror universe... etc.

 

[cooleddie74]

Which Kolos directly mentioned. Attorneys, teachers, and artists. People who weren't soldiers. The rulers of the Empire were a backstabbing, authoritarian class of their own while the lower rungs of Klingon society held "normal" jobs and careers.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

This is a franchise where women in go-go boots once stole Spock's brain to use as the main power source for their society's central computer and embarrassing Irish stereotypes once beamed onto an Enterprise with goats and other farm animals. Cartoonish is what Trek often does and it must be good at it if the franchise has lasted about 56 years.

I don't mind kitsch and plenty of Trek is kitsch. But I'm just sick and tired of the Mirror Universe. It's been done.

The first time it was novel. The second time was neat... the how-many-times-is-it-now is boring. The Mirror well for me has dried up a long time ago.

And the last time I really enjoyed the trope was the 1980s DC Comics "Mirror, Mirror" sequel arc The Mirror Universe Saga.

Also what was the point of jumping way the hell into the future, past all the canon baggage, but if only to introduce yet another mini-Mirror Universe arc?!

 

[NCC-73515]

STC's Fairest of them all was great

 

[cooleddie74]

ENT did the Mirror Universe best of all.

 

[Yistaan]

WORF: The Klingon system has operated successfully for centuries.

The Klingon Empire is nowhere near as backstabbing as the Mirror Universe Terran Empire. Look how much arm wringing Worf has to pull on Martok to get him to even challenge Gowron, and even then Martok refuses and Worf has to step up.

A Terran wouldn't need to be asked twice.

The closest we have to a Terran is Duras, and his ways were ultimately denounced by the Klingons.