The One Thing You Could Change, TOS Edition...

[cooleddie74]

Alrighty then.

 

[Mudd]

You think some of the episodes take place in the 22nd century and others in the 23rd century?

Some take place even later. Such as "Squire of Gothos."

They say so in the episodes.

You know why that happened?

Because it was a bunch of stories they made up as they went along. None of it took place, ever.

Next.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Back in the late 60s, I don't think anyone was so anally retentive that they gave a stuff about the canon of entertainment fluff. We appear to have developed that obsession later on, probably due to the ability to spout forth almost in real time on the Internet about anything, whether important or unimportant. We appear to have just have too much time on our hands in the early 21st century. In two hundred years time, historians and psychologists will probably write huge tomes analysing this phenomenon.

Oh, and the one thing I would change would be to have a script editor establish consistent dating within the show to avoid endless tedious discussion 50 years in the future...

 

[Mudd]

Roddenberry claimed that he was deliberately vague about when the show took place. That was the right call IMO.

 

[Harvey]

Oh, and the one thing I would change would be to have a script editor establish consistent dating within the show to avoid endless tedious discussion 50 years in the future...

De Forest Research generally kept track of such details, but their input was sometimes ignored.

 

[XCV330]

Actually there are possible interpretations of the data in TOS that would make it certain that TOS happens in the late 22nd century.

The official Star Trek Chronology: The History of the Future second edition describes the proceedures used in writing the chronology:





Actually, in "Encounter at Farpoint", the first episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation Riker met Data:



And it is certainly reasonable to deduce that Data graduated during the year 78 of an unspecified century.

In a later episode, "Datalore", it it is revealed how many years have passed since Data was found on Omicraon Theta:



So if Data took about four years to graduate from the Acadamy, he probably entered in year '74 of that century. If that was right after Data was discovered, the date of "Datalore" could be close to the year '99 or '00. Later it is confirmed that Data spent four years at the Academy:



So Data was promoted to lieutenant commander about thirteen to fifteen years after graduating in the "class of '78".

Those two facts put the date of "Datalore" somewhere in the period of about '91/'93 to '99/'00 in the calendar system used by Data in Encounter at Farpoint",

In "The Neutral Zone", the last episode of the first season of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Ralph Offenhouse, revived after centuries of death, asks:



So Data tells Ralph Offenhouse that the year is 2364 by Ralph's calendar, not by Data's calendar, and not by the audience's calendar, but by the calendar used by Ralph Offenouse.

It seems to be an unstated assumption of Star Trek Chronology: The History of the Future that all dates mentioned use the Anno Domini calendar era. But out of hundreds of dates given in various productions, only about half a dozen are specified as dates AD or BC. Thus it is quite possible than many of the dates which are mentioned without their calendar eras being specified use different calendar eras than the Anno Domini one.

So if the year is about 2391 to 2399 in Data's calendar, and 2364 in Ralph Offenhouse's calendar, Data's calendar should count the years from a calendar era about 27 to 35 years before the calendar era of Ralph Offenhouse's calendar. Or if the year is 2300 in Data's calendar and 2364 in Ralph Offenhouse's calendar, Data's calendar would used a calendar era about 64 years after the calendar era in Ralph Offenhouse's calendar.

In "The Neutral Zone" Dr. crusher tells Clare Raymond:



So Clare Rayomd died about the year 1994 in Ralph Offenhouse's calendar. And space travel in Ralph Offenhouse's year 1994 seems to have been much more advanced than was reasonable to predict when "The Neutral Zone" was made about 6 years earlier than AD 1994. But "The Neutral Zone" doesn't give any hint that Earth already has ffaster than light warp drive in the year 1994.

Earlier in the first season, in "Haven", a Tarellian ship is detected approaching:



So Tarellian ships have such a distinctive design they can be identified on the viewscreen.



So Tarellian ships can travel faster than light if their warp drives are not damaged.

When Dr. Crusher tells how the Tarellians wiped themselves out with a bioweapon:



So according to the calendar used by Dr. Crusher in that statement, Earth already had warp drive in the late 20th century. This implies that Crusher was using a calendar with a much later calendar era than Ralph Offenhouse's calendar, so that the same year would have a much lower number in Crusher's calendar.

So I assumed that Data and Crusher used one or two calendars with later calendar eras than the calendar of Ralph Offenhouse. In later seasons I noted that various dates mentioned were more and more consistent with Ralph Offenhouse's calendar.

So I assumed that when Raymond, Offenhouse, and Clemonds returned to Earth they became celebrities, and that was used by political pressure groups hoping to have the United Earth government make Ralph Offenhouse's calendar the official United Earth calendar. And they succeeded due to fame of the revived dead persons. I took that as an instance of the official United Earth calendar changing during the course of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

And when I looked for possible examples of different calendar eras being used in TOS I found some examples which I had not previously noticed.

So what "The Neutral Zone" establishes is that at least one episode of the first season of TNG happens in the year 2364 of Ralph Offenhouse's calendar, not that it happens in AD 2364.

If an unconscious and unstated rule in tar Trek Chronology: The History of the Future eas that all dates are given using the Anno Domini calendar era, then according to that assumption "Wolf in the Fold" establishes an earliest possible date for TOS.



So assuming that 2156 is AD 2156, the earliest possible date for "Wolf in the Fold" and TOS is AD 2156, in the late 22nd century in the Anno Domini calendar era.

Among the other rules used in the official Star Trek Chronology: The History of the Future are:



And:



In "Where No Man Has Gone Before" Gary Mitchel shows off his memory of the book he was reading:



So if Tarbolde wrote "Nightingale Woman" in English on the Canopius planet in 1996, that would imply that Earth had warp drive by 1996 and had reached distant stars by then.

Mitchell also says that 1996 was a past year during "the past couple of centuries". A couple is a pair, two. So the date of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" should be sometime between 1997 and 2196.

The first words of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" are:



So the SS Valiant has been msising for over two centuries by 1997 to 2196. Thus Earth must have had warp drive and interstellar travel sometime before the SS Valiant left, which was over 200 years before sometime between 1997 and 2196. Thus Earth had warp drive by sometime in the period of about 1797 to 1996. Thus we might suppose that Mitchell was using a calendar with a calendar era similar to the one Dr. Crusher used in "Haven", when she implied that Earth had warp drive during the late 20th century of that calendar.

But using the unconscious assumption that all dates are given using the Anno Domini calendar era, "Wolf in the Fold" and "Where No Man has Gone Before" would prove that TOS happens sometime between AD 2156 and AD 2196.

Assuming that TOS could happen in an alternate universe where the first manned moon shot happened at a different date than in our universe, there would be no proof that "Tomorrow is Yesterday" has to happen in July, 1969:

.

So the late 1960s would be1965 to 1969. Later in the episode Colonel Fellini threatens Kirk:



Someone who takes Kirk's quip seriously and follows the rule that two centuries equals exactly two hundred years should believe that the part of "Tommow is Yesterday" set in Kirk's era should be sometime between 2165 and 2169.

In "The Savage Curtain" Scott argues that the image of Lincoln can't possibly be the real Abraham Lincoln.



So Spock corrects Scott about the direction to Earth, not about the time since Lincoln died

According to the rule that "three centuries ago" equals exactly 300 years ago, "The Savage Curtain" should happen in 2165.

So "Wolf in the Fold" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" put TOS between 2156 and 2196, and "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and "The Savage Curtain" seem to put TOs in 2165.

Thus the only way to make TOS happen after the late 22nd century is to discard some of the assumptions made by Star Trek Chronology: The History of the Future. And if you do that, you might as well also discard the assumption in Star Trek Chronology: The History of the Future that TOS happens from 2266 to 2269, thus making it psosible for TOS to happen in the earlier 23rd century or even in the 22nd century.

Thus, depending on the assumptions that someone makes, it is possible to prove that (using certain assumptions) TOS must happen in the late 22nd century.

holy shit. you actually “actuallied” twice before going balls to the wall with that word vomit. I am impressed.

 

[Mudd]

Actually there are possible interpretations of the data in TOS that would make it certain that TOS happens in the late 22nd century.

So what? You can't follow "there are possible interpretations" with "would make it certain" - in the very same sentence - without allowing that everything which follows is nothing but hypothesizing and conjecture.

There are "possible interpretations" - like examining all the actual references in the series in context, you know - that make it certain that it's impossible to authoritatively establish a single time-frame for the series.

Scratch "possible interpretations," there - it should actually read "there are facts."

 

[Maurice]

Actually there are possible interpretations of the data in TOS that would make it certain that TOS happens in the late 22nd century.[...] <SNIP>

Even from 35,000 feet I can't see your entire post at once. TL;DR squared.

 

[cooleddie74]

The code in The Matrix was more decipherable than that.

 

[Commishsleer]

Back in the late 60s, I don't think anyone was so anally retentive that they gave a stuff about the canon of entertainment fluff. We appear to have developed that obsession later on, probably due to the ability to spout forth almost in real time on the Internet about anything, whether important or unimportant. We appear to have just have too much time on our hands in the early 21st century. In two hundred years time, historians and psychologists will probably write huge tomes analysing this phenomenon.

Oh, and the one thing I would change would be to have a script editor establish consistent dating within the show to avoid endless tedious discussion 50 years in the future...

Thats what we do here.
I find if I'm not interested in the discussion, I just look at another thread or start my own "important" thread.

 

[kami2awa]

Controversial idea: I would get rid of (or severely limit) the transporter.

Too many ST plots over the years had to produce rather contrived excuses for why the transporter couldn't be used to simply beam characters out of danger (or enemies into danger, or the brig). If the transporter was more limited (ie reduced accuracy, or requiring a transporter pad at both ends of the journey) then this would be avoided. By limiting it or removing it, this issue with the writing would be avoided.

 

[Pauln6]

Controversial idea: I would get rid of (or severely limit) the transporter.

Too many ST plots over the years had to produce rather contrived excuses for why the transporter couldn't be used to simply beam characters out of danger (or enemies into danger, or the brig). If the transporter was more limited (ie reduced accuracy, or requiring a transporter pad at both ends of the journey) then this would be avoided. By limiting it or removing it, this issue with the writing would be avoided.

Blake's 7 treated transporters as much a hindrance as a help. In Miri it should have been child's play (pun intended) to beam down fresh communicators. Time was of the essence. You would have thought the ship would become concerned quite quickly.

 

[kami2awa]

Blake's 7 treated transporters as much a hindrance as a help.

Interesting, how so? It's a long time since I've watched Blake's 7.

 

[Maurice]

Blake's 7 treated transporters as much a hindrance as a help. In Miri it should have been child's play (pun intended) to beam down fresh communicators. Time was of the essence. You would have thought the ship would become concerned quite quickly.

Yeah, the Blake's 7 teleport could not pick up anything without one of the teleport bracelets being involved, and all it did was teleport to and from the ship. It was never used as a magic box to create duplicates or decontaminate or whatever other "Tech the Tech" bullshit Trek shows fell into.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Some take place even later. Such as "Squire of Gothos."

As Spock would say, "I must differ with you."

- Jaeger's hasty assessment of Trelane's period decor is influenced by knowing that we encountered Gothos 900 light years from Earth. Jaeger wouldn't know one century's decor from another; he simply jumps to conclusions and figures that the Earth period being imitated must line up with the distance in light years. But it doesn't.

- The planet Gothos is Trelane's toy. He flies it through space at will— it can even outrun and corner the Enterprise. Trelane can go anywhere he wants to. He probably studied the Earth up close at various times over the centuries, saw a crazy quilt of mixed-period references, and then flew off to distant reaches of the galaxy.

Gothos just happened to be 900 light years from Earth when the Enterprise ran across it. That tells us nothing about what century Kirk is in.

 

[Pauln6]

Interesting, how so? It's a long time since I've watched Blake's 7.

Transporting people from a long distance away without a local dna scanner should never have been a thing. Implanting trackers and beaming down communicators to those locations should have been a thing.

 

[johnnybear]

The main reasons we are so obsessed with canon is because the writers of the newer shows aren't! Our favourite episodes and quirks from them have been ignored or changed in order for their versions to be accepted! And sometimes for no other reason than it sounds good!
JB

 

[kami2awa]

Re the transporter, in the recent films, it just got ridiculous.

"OK, we can beam you down, but we can't beam you up, and we can only beam one person..."

Half expected them to add "...and you have to wear lime green and be playing a trumpet" given how arbitrary those limitations are!

 

[Commishsleer]

Blake's 7 treated transporters as much a hindrance as a help. In Miri it should have been child's play (pun intended) to beam down fresh communicators. Time was of the essence. You would have thought the ship would become concerned quite quickly.

Yes once we learned that they could just scan for Vulcans and transport him up (in the Enterprise Incident), why didn't they do that for every lost landing party? Scan for Spock and they'd find the landing party.
Once they could intraship beam, beam straight onto the bridge(TNG) they had to invent lame reasons why they couldn't do it all the time to fix a problem?
Blakes 7. Why can't they show it on TV? I heard someone bought the rights and what is it going to dies with them? It is because the quality of the shows are too bad?
And yes the bracelets made the transport more sensible and dramatic and if they lost the bracelets then they were really stuck.

 

[johnnybear]

The special effects on Blakes 7 were never anything to write home about sadly but the stories of an oppressive Terran regime taking over planets and enslaving the populations of said planets is always interesting especially with the black suited, nifty helmeted storm troopers helping the transition of power and eliminating the rebels!
JB