Necessity. There still is the question of why this is necessary.
Welcome to Star Trek. The Dyson spheres are in a warehouse being evaluated by top men.
Location of Federation HQ post The Burn
- Thread starter mattman8907
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it’s necessary to add some realism to the history of this fictional universe. If things show minimal changes in 1000 years there is a clear development problem in universe. Which can do for an interesting story, but it doesn’t seem the are interested in doing that.
No, actually, it isn't.
That's exactly what it feels like.
The Dyson Sphere from 'Relics' was alien in origin... not Starfleet/Federation... and it seemed largely 'tacked on' and contributing limited amount to the story because the writers never bothered on integrating it into a larger story-line or giving it a more important role and how it might affect the Federation.
And because of this, like many other advanced technologies we saw Starfleet either developing or just encountering, it disappeared into nothingness.
If you're making a story set 930 years into the future (or 810 years into the future after 24th century), then you might as well use some higher theoretical science concepts and integrate them to work with your story (which would then be modified to include them in a more prominent capacity) and showcase some convincing realism when it comes to advancement in Trek universe.
To me, for now, the Trek 32nd century looks barely more advanced than what you'd expect to see by the late 25th or 26th century (at the latest)... certainly not 32nd century.
Then again, as societies advance, they become more adept at making more with less... so its possible that Starfleet is in fact really highly advanced by this time frame (and did in fact go extra-galactic - or at least the Federation did)... but then I have to ask myself, why would they still be using M/AM and dilithium 700 years after the year 2258? That just doesn't make sense in the slightest - and if it DID go extra-galactic, you'd think SOMEONE would have mentioned it by now.
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But you could make that kind of argument for anything.
Why then push the show into the 32nd century where CLEARLY technology and science would have evolved/changed drastically as its been mentioned?
Why not keep it in the 23rd century if you won't change much of anything or make it 'slightly' different (which certainly isn't enough to give some realism that 930 years have passed).
Whats' the point of making a show set so far into the future if you don't make an effort of creating more CONVINCING extrapolation of how far science and technology have evolved?
I only suggested Dyson Swarms/Spheres as a possible option that could have been introduced (and other ex UFP members) by this time because it would provide a real life scientific connection and give us a better illustration of how much time has passed and how this resulted in development of say a Dyson Sphere in SOL which was created lets say in the 26th or 27th century - this would most certainly shock the Discovery crew for one thing.
At the moment, it hardly feels ANY significant amount of time has passed (at least from what we saw thus far).
To stop pissing off the canonistas.
The technology is not the part of it.
But would it add to the story? Thus far I haven't heard a convincing reason as to why because Dyson structures are about power generation (from what I've read). It's not the only way to indicate advance civilizations.
Technology is a very large part of Trek... its set in the future for crying out loud... in SPACE no less.
Warp drive, Transporters, Replicators, Holodecks, etc.
In a similar way how Roddenberry said that Humanity overcame its infantile stage, Trek was using alien cultures as an allegory for what has happening in real life... in many cases problems were solved with technology and science and education... you can't really escape this because technologically advanced societies DO solve problems with science and technology - you can still leave existing emotional aspects for the crew to deal with etc... just integrate more realistic advancement in technology for the sake of showing us its not 'more of the same'.
Otherwise, I would humbly submit the idea that not doing so is really not doing much for the story to leave things as is for 1000 years. Its actually absurd and hard to swallow (as many people have noted).
It can add to the story if incorporated into it properly.
Dyson structures aren't just about power generation (though one of the primary functions of them would be this).
It also provides a species with MASSIVE amounts of space to live in a single star system, with ridiculous room to grow if they choose to do expand the population to such amounts.
The Dyson Swarms/Spheres can also be used as massive manufacturing facilities which with Federation technology from 24th century could simply REPLICATE fleets of ships into existence in a span of a single transporter cycle and raise for example a solar system wide shield to protect against a potentially invading fleet or potential natural disasters.
Almost 0 technological progression (or minimal progression) makes it look 'more of the same compared to what came before' and can contribute to the show being 'more of the same'.
It was not a part of the decision to move in to the future. I did not say technology was not a part of Trek. However, it isn't the central focus.
I don't feel like we have enough information to draw such a conclusion.
Mileage, etc.
That is interesting. Doesn't sound like Star Trek despite the possibilities. I think it any other franchise I would expect such things. In Trek? Less so.
I would posit it was.
The Sphere Data for one thing.
Rise of Control (though its reasoning for wanting to destroy all sentient life was in my opinion... non-sensible really - I think poor writing was quite visible there).
How use of technology can negatively affect a species in early stage of development and potentially destroy it because they weren't ready (intellectually) to use it.
Or civilizations in earlier stages of development that didn't shed greed and warfare might want to acquire the ability to make their own Dyson Swarms/Spherers as means of extending their own regimes.
In this regard I do agree... but I did mention "from what we saw thus far" in my earlier reply... and usually (at least if previous Trek is any indication), the writers don't tend to push the envelope too far.
It actually sounds a lot like Star Trek to me... or at least, application of pre-existing Trek technology to the Dyson Sphere concept.
Again, the Federation would still be using SOL wide shields for defensive purposes only and mainly to aid in exploring the galaxy as a whole.
On a flip-side, it would be interesting to see how the Borg would react if they were to get a whim the Federation was making Dyson Swarms or Spheres... if they were to TRY and assimilate one, we might start seeing how the UFP was effectively preventing Borg invasions without resorting to some of the more 'convenient tropes' we saw.
And because they had virtually unlimited energy from the Dyson Swarm or Sphere, they could prevent TW conduit formation (or at least ones of Borg origin) from forming in ANY section of Federation space.
I dunno, but to me this kind of storytelling might open new possibilities.
I mean, even if you take Voyager 'Endgame' into account, it was about how advanced Federation technology became in less than 30 years. And it showed that they managed to develop weapons that could destroy a Cube (a heavily armored and weaponized one at that) with a single torpedo while also developing a hull armor that proved highly effective in protecting against Borg weapons.
Granted, I'm only presenting superficial ideas with Dyson Swarm/Sphere concepts... but once you start thinking more and more along those lines... it would probably create stories that would need to fit within that kind of setting.
Again, the Dyson Swarm/Sphere was a concept I proposed Trek could have used to showcase just how far individual solar systems, like SOL for example, evolved.
For an isolationist Earth that was no longer part of UFP, building something like that would actually be perfect (especially if you wanted to better protect your home system from raiders and make yourself even more self-sustaining).
But you have to admit, lack of scanners in Earth's orbit that can scan lightyears ahead in 32nd century is... quite frankly preposterous. Also, why quantum torpedoes?
Couldn't they invent something different by then?
For a planet that claims to emphasize defense, you'd think they would at least keep 24th century grade sensor technology capable of scanning Lightyears away (which would allow them to see Titan suffered an accident and were trying to send ships for potential aid).
I mean with a massive shield around Earth anyway, why such an issue in trying a diplomatic approach?
Agree to disagree on this point.
They probably won't. That's why seeing it outside of Trek is my preference.
I wouldn't go so far as preposterous. And the torpedoes are fine if they work.
Fear, pure and simple.
It was to showcase that Trek did center its story around technology on more than one occasion.
But my idea wouldn't necessarily fixate on it entirely... it would simply change the setting and have the story adapt to that setting.
I'd like to see it in Trek for a change.
I think its 'about time' for the Federation to build its own (or something similar that's far more efficient).
Its most definitely preposterous. Simple smaller orbital stations with dedicated subspace sensors to allow deep space scanners lightyears away (like Sahil had for example) would have been more than doable - and again, very useful to detect potential incoming ships that might not have friendly intentions.
As for using Quantum torpedoes just because they work...
For 810 years after the 24th century?
I think not.
Voyager showcased that it was able to develop Transphasic torpedoes in the 16 years it took to get back to the Federation in the initial timeline (before Admiral Janeway decided to change that).
We even saw that Quantum torpedoes began introduction in the late 24th century (200 years after Photon torpedoes were already in use... or their younger siblings known as 'photonic torpedoes').
Could have created different torpedoes, or just fired something entirely different.
Sure, but as I said, they had a massive planetary shield protecting them and their ships...
Also, why didn't Titan's initial ship or subsequent (wen's) ships opened hailing communications explaining their situation?
Surely they may have assumed the Burn could have caused Earth to be a bit less open to outsiders which could have prompted them to destroy the initial ship.
But it's not about technology but people. People who, thus far, have not factored in this discussion.
And again, moving to the future wasn't about tech.
Cool. I don't.
It being possible doesn't make preposterous for them not doing it.
It works is sufficient for me.
Fear perhaps. Or hatred.
True, and that was a failing of that episode. The only reason they used a Dyson sphere was to have the big ending with the space doors.
Perhaps it’s just a very efficient way to power up things. We still use the wheel and coal, even if they are not the only alternatives.
Can’t agree here: it just hasn’t been relevant to the story. I do think we’ll discover the federation did explore parts of other galaxies. Or at least I hope.
Exactly.
Sure, then why set it in the future? I mean, most stories could be told with a 14th century setting or a fantasy one with only a few changes x
In any case, from what we got so far this new era is barely more advanced than the late 24th century, which is particularly odd if compared with what we’ve seen in the few episodes that ventured further. The idea of a stagnant technological development is a valid trope, see for example Star Wars (fittingly, is often a fantasy trope), but it doesn’t seem the writers are going to use it either: if *we* are noticing how little advancements there have been in a millennia the crew of Discovery should probably be wondering why as well.
Not integrated? You mean having the greatest engineering construct in the history of Trek with its most magical Engineer were not related??
RAMA
RAMA
Reminds me of that one line in ST III. Judi Durand, ostensibly doing a computer voice, manages to sound rather sarcastic:
"DANGER! Space doors are CLOSED!"
well, given that the Scotty plot had very little to do with the sphere’s mini-b-plot...
By the way, the sphere itself should have had a galactic importance: inside it you have the equivalent of hundreds of thousands planets within impulse drive reach. Especially now that warp speed is expensive that would allow a civilization to thrive.
Provided they stabilize the star somehow. I rather think this was the point: the sphere is a hugely important resource, so somebody went to a lot of trouble to deny that resource from his competitors. And probably made doubly sure that nobody could ever fix what he broke.
As a hideout for two-bit paracriminal outfits like Starfleet, it's fine. As a permanent residence for a civilization or a zillion... Not so much.
Timo Saloniemi
As a hideout for two-bit paracriminal outfits like Starfleet, it's fine. As a permanent residence for a civilization or a zillion... Not so much.
Timo Saloniemi
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