Location of Federation HQ post The Burn

[jackoverfull]

Political will still has an impact on development. The Federation has demonstrated times were it is unwilling to move forward in particular places.

Yes, BUT: 1000 years are a *very* long time to stagnate, especially in a galaxy full of potentially aggressive competitors that will develop the technology you are not interested in developing.

See Bajor, that stagnated millennia And was conquered as soon as the relatively young Cardassian developed enough to do it.

Still, we have to keep in mind that Saru is no longer susceptible to fear as he used to be. Perhaps this is what lead to his not much of a worry to begin with when interacting with Zora

Which would actually make for an interesting potential storyline, with Saru now becoming more and more reckless...But it’s definitely not what’s happening at te moment.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, BUT: 1000 years are a *very* long time to stagnate, especially in a galaxy full of potentially aggressive competitors that will develop the technology you are not interested in developing.

See Bajor, that stagnated millennia And was conquered as soon as the relatively young Cardassian developed enough to do it.

Yes, BUT, Star Trek is terrible time lines. So, no I don't expect the Federation to do things just because of 1,000 years because I truly do not believe that anyone could conceive of what that time gap would actually produce.

Thus, I am less concerned with technological development, because Star Trek bins tech all the time that would be galaxy changing. I am more concerned with character development. That at least I can bank on.

 

[jackoverfull]

Yes, BUT, Star Trek is terrible time lines. So, no I don't expect the Federation to do things just because of 1,000 years because I truly do not believe that anyone could conceive of what that time gap would actually produce.

as written elsewhere: just because there have been logical fallacies in the past isn’t reason to stop hoping things would make sense.

 

[Deks]

as written elsewhere: just because there have been logical fallacies in the past isn’t reason to stop hoping things would make sense.

Plus, we have seen writers trying to explain certain things within canon... such as Klingons that look like tanned humans with beards... by making it appear as if an augment virus was part of the blame (it would also explain the varied look of many klingons in the 23rd century).
Mind you, we know that the budget in the 60-ies didn't allow for elaborate face masks/make-up to make aliens on a regular basis.
But still the writers tried to explain that and fit it in canon.

So it would be nice for them to pay attention to technological advancement which could be seen as more consistent for 930 passage of time (and there are plenty of real life hypothetical and theoretical concepts to choose from and modify to fit within the Trek universe).

 

[fireproof78]

as written elsewhere: just because there have been logical fallacies in the past isn’t reason to stop hoping things would make sense.

So it would be nice for them to pay attention to technological advancement which could be seen as more consistent for 930 passage of time (and there are plenty of real life hypothetical and theoretical concepts to choose from and modify to fit within the Trek universe).

It would be nice.


I won't expect nor demand it.

 

[Sci]

The term "Federation HQ" is nonsensical.

Is "Federation HQ" supposed to mean "seat of government"?
Or is this another case where writers mix up the Federation and Starfleet? (Burnham called the guy in the space station S3E01 a "Federation officer")

I think this is an example of needing to allow for the possibility that sometimes characters use technically-inaccurate vernacular. Like, is anyone really gonna be confused if someone calls it "United States HQ" instead of "the U.S. government?"

Also, bear in mind that we don't have a full grasp of the political situation of the 32nd Century yet. It's entirely plausible that the Federation has been so reduced in territory and population that the line between the civilian government and Starfleet has disappeared for practical. For all we know, the fullest extent of Federation territory might be a space station and two starships.

Well, it shows how advanced the 31th century is from Discovery’s 23th, which is something that is currently lacking a lot.

The only thing that we’ve seen so far that wasn’t already common by the late 24th century is the personal transporter and even that was introduced, as a prototype in Nemesis!

I mean, I think to start with its pretty clear that the ships are all more advanced than the Discovery. I think it's also pretty clear that things like programmable matter are routine in the 3100s and are like magic to the 23rd Century folks. So there clearly there has been progress. But by the same token, the fall of the Federation could easily have led to significant technological regression -- I could easily imagine the 28th Century Federation being more advanced than the 32nd Century worlds as a result of the Burn and the chaos of the loss of UFP governance.

 

[Char Kais]

Also, bear in mind that we don't have a full grasp of the political situation of the 32nd Century yet.

This is one of the many frustrating aspects of STD.

This season has 13 episodes. We are 4 episodes in and after the biggest status quo change in the history of Star Trek, nobody in the show is talking about the current state of the galaxy besides "Starfleet/Federation is gone". And this information we have been told in slightly different iterations three times in a row in the first three episodes.

What happened to the Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians?
Who are the major powers in the A/B quadrant? Who filled the power vacuum after the Fed was gone?
Why didn't the Borg/Dominion move in?
Are there new superpowers or are warlords/pirates/crime syndicates/courier organizations in charge?

I hope with today's show (E5) this will change, and we get some information about the state of the galaxy.

 

[Lord Garth]

I feel like vulcan being the new capital is too predictable and expected.

I'm starting to think that not only did starfleet leave earth, but it left all of the key federation planets. We've seen some hints of this i think with the andorians allying with the orions.

It could be that starfleet consolidated somewhere outside of its old borders, perhaps a planet designated as a fallback position in the event the core worlds fell. The Federation/V'draysh might not consist of anything more than a smattering of planets colonised post-burn

Getting this in before "Die Trying" airs.

I now agree with you. If Starfleet Command is hard to find, then it's not going to be on Vulcan.

 

[Lord Garth]

This is one of the many frustrating aspects of STD.

This season has 13 episodes. We are 4 episodes in and after the biggest status quo change in the history of Star Trek, nobody in the show is talking about the current state of the galaxy besides "Starfleet/Federation is gone". And this information we have been told in slightly different iterations three times in a row in the first three episodes.

What happened to the Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians?
Who are the major powers in the A/B quadrant? Who filled the power vacuum after the Fed was gone?
Why didn't the Borg/Dominion move in?
Are there new superpowers or are warlords/pirates/crime syndicates/courier organizations in charge?

I hope with today's show (E5) this will change, and we get some information about the state of the galaxy.

You're forgetting that this crew is from 2258. A list of items here:

1) They've never interacted with the Romulans. The Earth/Romulan War was about 100 years ago, from their perspective. And "Balance of Terror" (TOS) won't happen until eight years after they left the 23rd Century.

2) Even if they know about the Cardassians, they hadn't had any Border Wars yet.

3) The Discovery crew have no idea who the Borg or Dominion are. The story is being told from this crew's point of view.

4) Communication is limited in range and warp itself is limited in range. Sahil explained this in "That Hope Is You". Any Major Enemy is going to be limited too, if they're affected by The Burn.

5) The Borg are the domain of Picard. I'm assuming the writers of Discovery don't want to step on the toes of Picard. Who knows what PIC wants to do with the Borg? For all we know, they may want to change the Borg into something else. If they were to reveal this in DSC, or the ultimate fate of the Borg in general, that would be potentially spoiling PIC's ending; if it were to focus on the Borg. I want Picard's options to be open, not shut.

6) How do we know if the Dominion are still around? And to do you one better: How do we know that Odo didn't reform them when he rejoined the Link? That's what I was under the impression he was going to do. And with Rene Auberjonious having passed away, the door is closed on Odo returning. Even if they do anything with DS9 in the future, I think we'll never see him again. So I'd like to think the Great Link is where he stayed for good, to do some good.

 

[Char Kais]

You're forgetting that this crew is from 2258. A list of items here:

1) They've never interacted with the Romulans. The Earth/Romulan War was about 100 years ago, from their perspective. And "Balance of Terror" (TOS) won't happen until eight years after they left the 23rd Century.

2) Even if they know about the Cardassians, they hadn't had any Border Wars yet.

3) The Discovery crew have no idea who the Borg or Dominion are. The story is being told from this crew's point of view.

4) Communication is limited in range and warp itself is limited in range. Sahil explained this in "That Hope Is You". Any Major Enemy is going to be limited too, if they're affected by The Burn.

5) The Borg are the domain of Picard. I'm assuming the writers of Discovery don't want to step on the toes of Picard. Who knows what PIC wants to do with the Borg? For all we know, they may want to change the Borg into something else. If they were to reveal this in DSC, or the ultimate fate of the Borg in general, that would be potentially spoiling PIC's ending; if it were to focus on the Borg. I want Picard's options to be open, not shut.

6) How do we know if the Dominion are still around? And to do you one better: How do we know that Odo didn't reform them when he rejoined the Link? That's what I was under the impression he was going to do. And with Rene Auberjonious having passed away, the door is closed on Odo returning. Even if they do anything with DS9 in the future, I think we'll never see him again. So I'd like to think the Great Link is where he stayed for good, to do some good.

1-3) They should simply ask what the political state of the galaxy is and people from the 32nd century should fill them in.
New superpowers? yes/no
Was the power vacuum filled? yes/no
If "yes", by whom?

Simple questions to do some world-building after the biggest shakeup in Star Trek, other than "Starfleet gone".

The EDF captain said that Earth was a potential target because Federation HQ was there.
FOR WHOM? Who potentially targeted earth? Raiders?
Everything is so vague. The writers take all the time in the world to write about feelings but not about the state of the galaxy.

4) That's a conjecture, the show should address these things.
5) STD can't ignore a major power in the galaxy. That's a plothole bigger than a transwarp conduit.
6) Maybe the show should address that?

 

[Agony_Boothb]

1-3) They should simply ask what the political state of the galaxy is and people from the 32nd century should fill them in.
New superpowers? yes/no
Was the power vacuum filled? yes/no
If "yes", by whom?

Simple questions to do some world-building after the biggest shakeup in Star Trek, other than "Starfleet gone".

The EDF captain said that Earth was a potential target because Federation HQ was there.
FOR WHOM? Who potentially targeted earth? Raiders?
Everything is so vague. The writers take all the time in the world to write about feelings but not about the state of the galaxy.

4) That's a conjecture, the show should address these things.
5) STD can't ignore a major power in the galaxy. That's a plothole bigger than a transwarp conduit.
6) Maybe the show should address that?

But why should Discovery address the fates of the Borg and the Dominion? They are two superpowers who are completely irrelevant to Discovery given it's original time period.

The United Earth Defense Force seemed to know very little or care about what was going on outside of Earth's orbit. The Trill also didn't seem to be in a position to know what was happening in the galaxy at large. This is actually pretty realistic given the state of the galaxy and it would be weird to be getting all these info dumps, from people who have had little contact from outside their own solar systems for nearly a hundred years.

 

[Lord Garth]

5) STD can't ignore a major power in the galaxy. That's a plothole bigger than a transwarp conduit.

The Borg are Picard's to deal with. The Borg's story is not Discovery's to tell. Deep down, you know this too. I don't know what Picard will do, but I think it should have the space to tell its story without us already knowing how it ultimately turns out in DSC.

And besides, judging by your calling it "STD", I don't think you'd like what Discovery would do with the Borg anyway. If I were you, I'd consider myself lucky they're not in this series.

6) Maybe the show should address that?

If it makes sense to within the scope of Discovery. See what Agony_Boothb said.

 

[SJGardner]

Just because I'm curious about what happened to the Borg or the Dominion, whether the Vidiians were able to rebound from the Phage or if the Backup EMH was finally able to return to Earth, etc... it doesn't mean that Discovery is in any way obligated to tell me about them. It's not the show's job to be a sequel to every single Star Trek episode simply by virtue of taking place after them. It isn't supposed to be a travel guide to the 32nd century galaxy either. I don't really think many people would enjoy it if a Discovery episode was literally only about the crew listening to 930 years worth of wikipedia articles and history lessons.

 

[jackoverfull]

I mean, I think to start with its pretty clear that the ships are all more advanced than the Discovery.

Barely. As pointed out above, 25th century Starfleet vessels could destroy Borg cubes with ease, now Discovery can survive a 32th century torpedo and is still the fastest ship in the galaxy.

I think it's also pretty clear that things like programmable matter are routine in the 3100s and are like magic to the 23rd Century folks.

Yes, programmable matter is a great addiction. It’s still a logical advancement on the replicator, someone that has probably been around for several centuries now.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

About "Federation officer", this is not new. In pre-2009, we had thirteen episodes and one film where the term "Federation officer" was used.
http://search.freefind.com/find.html?pageid=r&id=98804524&query="federation+officer"&ics=1&fr=0

 

[Deks]

Just because I'm curious about what happened to the Borg or the Dominion, whether the Vidiians were able to rebound from the Phage or if the Backup EMH was finally able to return to Earth, etc... it doesn't mean that Discovery is in any way obligated to tell me about them. It's not the show's job to be a sequel to every single Star Trek episode simply by virtue of taking place after them. It isn't supposed to be a travel guide to the 32nd century galaxy either. I don't really think many people would enjoy it if a Discovery episode was literally only about the crew listening to 930 years worth of wikipedia articles and history lessons.

Just as a side mention, the Vidiians were able to rebound from the phage.
Remember that in VOY 'ThinkThank' episode, Krios mentioned to Janeway that they helped Vidiians get rid of the phage.

 

[SJGardner]

Just as a side mention, the Vidiians were able to rebound from the phage.
Remember that in VOY 'ThinkThank' episode, Krios mentioned to Janeway that they helped Vidiians get rid of the phage.

To be fair, Kurros only said they cured the phage for them. Anything else is a blank slate, and who knows what price he asked for.

 

[SJGardner]

Barely. As pointed out above, 25th century Starfleet vessels could destroy Borg cubes with ease, now Discovery can survive a 32th century torpedo and is still the fastest ship in the galaxy.

On that point, if we really want to inject realism into everything, we don't know why Earth was back to using quantum torpedoes, as confirmed by the dialogue. It is entirely possible that in their isolation, they don't have the materials or the industrial base required to produce anything more powerful. Given that the most combat they see is presumably raiders harassing them, they might have just shrugged and decided they'll make do with what they've got.

... now it reminds me how annoying it is whenever I lose my saltpeter deposits in a Civilization game and I'm forced to defend with medieval pikemen against tanks and artillery. Ah, the memories.

EDIT: Back when we were speculating about season 3, I've argued that even in the future, Discovery should find themselves in an environment comparable to their own that they can relate to. Concepts like Discovery being hopelessly outmatched against random shuttlecraft that could to one-hit kill them or future ships accidentally shorting out their entire electric grid with a cursory sensor sweep because it emits so much energy might have some novelty value but they would wear themselves razor-thin before the season was only halfway over.

 

[Tuskin38]

Soooo did we get a location this episode?

 

[IMC Headquarters]

I don't really think many people would enjoy it if a Discovery episode was literally only about the crew listening to 930 years worth of wikipedia articles and history lessons.

I'd enjoy it. Especially if all the cast had a turn reading.

I'd love to have the gaps filled in. Easter eggs are all well and good, but they just aren't filling. And leave me hungry for more cohesion.