"Invasive Procedures" vs "Dax" and "Blood Oath"

[Captrek]

In “Invasive Procedures,” Varad Dax plans to go to the Gamma Quadrant. This is very much against the interests of the symbiont, which will not easily find a new host in Gamma if something happens to Varad.

Trill are indoctrinated that the survival of the symbiont is more important than the host. Varad may not have internalized this, but after seven lifetimes Dax presumably has.

It makes no sense that Dax would agree to this. It suggests that, if Dax has a will of its own, it is easily overridden by the host’s desires. It would be absurd to hold the symbiont responsible for trying to take itself to Gamma, very much against its interests and values. So how could it be responsible for the actions of Curzon Dax?

One idea is that Varad Dax’s situation is different because he was freshly joined. It takes time for the symbiont to integrate its will into the host’s, and in the meantime the host’s will dominates. This suggests that at some point Varad Dax would have a change of heart and decide, “I’ve got to go back to Alpha and face the music so the symbiont will survive me.” And Varad would know this before starting the whole plan.

What do you think?

 

[Tosk]

One idea is that Varad Dax’s situation is different because he was freshly joined.

Personally, I think the idea that it takes time for the 'final' personality of a pairing to come through is supported by other examples.

Ezri Dax struggles to integrate all her impulses for quite a while, sometimes unable to tell which ones are hers and which ones are simply memories of previous hosts.

Jadzia Dax took a year to go from a cool and somewhat austere person to the rowdier, full-throated Old Man we see after that.


I'm not even sure we need the Gamma escape to show that Verad was steering the ship in this instance. I have to think the fact that Verad Dax left Jadzia to die shows that either Verad had primary control, or that Dax is a heartless little bastard.

 

[kkt]

In “Invasive Procedures,” Varad Dax plans to go to the Gamma Quadrant. This is very much against the interests of the symbiont, which will not easily find a new host in Gamma if something happens to Varad.

Trill are indoctrinated that the survival of the symbiont is more important than the host. Varad may not have internalized this, but after seven lifetimes Dax presumably has.

It makes no sense that Dax would agree to this. It suggests that, if Dax has a will of its own, it is easily overridden by the host’s desires. It would be absurd to hold the symbiont responsible for trying to take itself to Gamma, very much against its interests and values. So how could it be responsible for the actions of Curzon Dax?

One idea is that Varad Dax’s situation is different because he was freshly joined. It takes time for the symbiont to integrate its will into the host’s, and in the meantime the host’s will dominates. This suggests that at some point Varad Dax would have a change of heart and decide, “I’ve got to go back to Alpha and face the music so the symbiont will survive me.” And Varad would know this before starting the whole plan.

What do you think?

Very good point. Regarding the episodes "Dax" and "Blood Oath" I thought there must be Trill law about to what extent, if any, a joined Trill is responsible for the crimes and agreements of their symbiont in a past host.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Trill are indoctrinated that the survival of the symbiont is more important than the host. Varad may not have internalized this, but after seven lifetimes Dax presumably has.

I think this was a rather superfluous bit of lore. Everyone is responsible for their own well being, whether they play things safe, take risks for profit, or take risks for the public good. Were joined Trills not going to join the military because of an overabudance of caution with regard to the Trill symbiont? That would probably de-legitimize them with the larger public.

 

[Captrek]

I think this was a rather superfluous bit of lore. Everyone is responsible for their own well being, whether they play things safe, take risks for profit, or take risks for the public good. Were joined Trills not going to join the military because of an overabudance of caution with regard to the Trill symbiont? That would probably de-legitimize them with the larger public.

It’s said the life of the symbiont is more important than the host, not more important than everything in the universe.

Risking the symbiont to fight a war? OK. Sacrificing the symbiont to serve the host’s personal ambitions? Not.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Risking the symbiont to fight a war? OK. Sacrificing the symbiont to serve the host’s personal ambitions? Not.

There are individuals who take risks, selfish and altruistic, even though it could harm another organism, like their children. Whatever they say is the episode is a distinction without a difference.

 

[Captrek]

Very good point. Regarding the episodes "Dax" and "Blood Oath" I thought there must be Trill law about to what extent, if any, a joined Trill is responsible for the crimes and agreements of their symbiont in a past host.

In “Dax” it seems odd that there is no established principle to guide the case, but you forgive it so you have the excuse to tell the story and delve philosophical.

In “Blood Oath,” IIRC, it’s established that Trill custom would not hold Jadzia Dax to Curzon Dax’s oath, but she insists on following it anyway.

 

[Tosk]

In “Dax” it seems odd that there is no established principle to guide the case, but you forgive it so you have the excuse to tell the story and delve philosophical.

In Dax, the story primarily involves the Bajoran legal system, whether to allow the extradition. So we sidestep the issue of Federation or Trill rules.

 

[kkt]

In Dax, the story primarily involves the Bajoran legal system, whether to allow the extradition. So we sidestep the issue of Federation or Trill rules.

In our world, in extradition hearings, part of the issue is whether what the accused is wanted for is really a crime and if the punishments would be appropriate in the country considering extraditing them. For instance if the requesting country wants to try the accused for a capital offense but the country where they are has no capital punishment, they may refuse extradition unless there is an agreement that the requesting country will not to seek the death penalty in that case.

 

[Captrek]

In Dax, the story primarily involves the Bajoran legal system, whether to allow the extradition. So we sidestep the issue of Federation or Trill rules.

Does it make sense for each world to have their own standards on whether a joined Trill is responsible for the acts of its previous hosts? Surely a standard would exist. We pretend there isn’t so we can have the episode and explore these issues, which is fine, but the way it explores the issues seems inconsistent with what we see in Invasive Procedures, where the symbiont has little or no capacity to influence the actions of the host.

 

[Tosk]

seems inconsistent with what we see in Invasive Procedures, where the symbiont has little or no capacity to influence the actions of the host.

In the first ten minutes of joining, sure.
(And we've also seen possible evidence that an ill-chosen host can maybe 'override' a symbiont, as with Joran. "The balance is off", as one of the Trill Guardians once said. ...or Dax is just a weak symbiont who lets hosts walk all over them. Or Dax kind of likes murder and/or escaping to other quadrants. )

But each joining is a new personality. We can't predict what that personality will be just by This Person + That Person.

In our world, in extradition hearings, part of the issue is whether what the accused is wanted for is really a crime and if the punishments would be appropriate in the country considering extraditing them. For instance if the requesting country wants to try the accused for a capital offense but the country where they are has no capital punishment, they may refuse extradition unless there is an agreement that the requesting country will not to seek the death penalty in that case.

I mean sidestep in terms of the episode itself gets to tell its story without getting too bogged down with possibilities of previously established law. By setting the story within Bajoran jurisdiction, they can tell their story from a place of primarily arguing the moral dilemma instead of legal precedent.

...And then also not having to solve it in the end thanks to some late testimony.

Does it make sense for each world to have their own standards on whether a joined Trill is responsible for the acts of its previous hosts? Surely a standard would exist.

We don't even know if Trill is a Federation member for sure. We know that Klaestron isn't, and that Bajor isn't. Why would they all have one single set of standard rules for Trill matters?

 

[Lynx]

In “Invasive Procedures,” Varad Dax plans to go to the Gamma Quadrant. This is very much against the interests of the symbiont, which will not easily find a new host in Gamma if something happens to Varad.

Trill are indoctrinated that the survival of the symbiont is more important than the host. Varad may not have internalized this, but after seven lifetimes Dax presumably has.

It makes no sense that Dax would agree to this. It suggests that, if Dax has a will of its own, it is easily overridden by the host’s desires. It would be absurd to hold the symbiont responsible for trying to take itself to Gamma, very much against its interests and values. So how could it be responsible for the actions of Curzon Dax?

One idea is that Varad Dax’s situation is different because he was freshly joined. It takes time for the symbiont to integrate its will into the host’s, and in the meantime the host’s will dominates. This suggests that at some point Varad Dax would have a change of heart and decide, “I’ve got to go back to Alpha and face the music so the symbiont will survive me.” And Varad would know this before starting the whole plan.

What do you think?

We also have to consider that Varad was a bit weird and definitely thinking outside Trill laws and rules. he was an egomaniac and criminal, only thinking about himself.

 

[Captrek]

In the first ten minutes of joining, sure.

That’s one theory, but it suggests that the symbiont would grow in influence over time until the combined being decides to return to the Alpha Quadrant and face the music.

I wonder what the music would be. Remove the symbiont and let Varad die? Imprison him? It’s a weird situation with criminal and victim becoming a single merged being. How do you uphold justice in that situation if you can’t separate them?