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Gene gets much bad talk around here....

I mean you can like somebody's creations without liking the person they were.

When it comes down to it his private life or personality are not relevant to Star Trek. And I have read positive and negative things about him.

However what I think is relevant to Star Trek is that I think some of his excesses (be they his abysmal use of female characters and sexist writing, his repetition of story elements or his ideas about 'evolved humanity' in the 24th century) harmed his own creation in many ways and we can see how both the movies and TNG improved once he was removed from having any direct creative control.

Of course whether Berman was so much better as a person or a creator is also up for debate :nyah:
 
harmed his own creation in many ways and we can see how both the movies and TNG improved once he was removed from having any direct creative control.
I mean, yes and no. Piller, who helmed INS, certainly worked within the 24th century box with the general lack of conflict with the crew over the Bakku.
 
Gene rewrote many scripts for TOS and no one seems to complain but everyone complains about similar behavior in TNG (over which he was promised complete control). IMO the real question is why promise him complete control and then argue with anything and everything you don't agree with. Why not cancel the show or start your own spin off instead of trying to force Gene to change.
The movies improved without Gene? That's up for debate as most of the movies are bad. Everyone's gold standard is the Wrath of Kahn which IMO isn't bad but also isn't phenomenal either.
Even TNG has only a few really great episodes. TBOBW got everyone hooked but there are a lot of mediocre episodes IMO.
Even now a days the writing of movies and series seems to be "it has be TWOK or it has to be controversial to be star trek
 
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Gene rewrote many scripts for TOS and no one seems to complain but everyone complains about similar behavior in TNG (over which he was promised complete control). IMO the real question is why promise him complete control and then argue with anything and everything you don't agree with. Why not cancel the show or start your own spin off instead of trying to force Gene to change.
The movies improved without Gene? That's up for debate as most of the movies are bad.

Well first of all TOS is judged by the standards of 1960s television where some things are less glaringly obvious, plus there's nostalgia. Personally I bitch about his bad TOS stuff (Mud's Women and the endless parade of false gods) all the time.
TNG is judged b y the standards of late 80s/early90s writing where stuff like Tasha "secretly enjoying" her kidnapping or the planet full of half-naked barbie dolls who "play at love" are a lot more out of place. A lot of the criticism of season 1 of TNG is that feels too much like a 1960s show when it was made in the 80s.

And of course the ST movies are bad when judged by the standard of movies. When seen as long episodes some of them are decent, however, and almost all the later ones (except TFF and INS) are, in my eyes, better than TMP, which was an embarrassing and overly padded ripoff of 2001:A space odyssey.
 
Reading "The Making of Star Trek" from 1968 was very informative.

Roddenberry was very much involved with the creation of Star Trek and how it appeared. What you saw in the 1960s was very much in line with what he wanted to create. So I don't think you can minimize his involvement in that early stage.

"The World of Star Trek" by David Gerrold was also pretty informative.

Both references focused on what their titles indicated, "The Making..." on the nuts and bolts of the production with some storylines. "The World...." more focused on the story with some nuts and bolts thrown in. And they both make clear to me that Roddenberry was an active participant in the original TV series. He was an active producer throughout it's creation and the initial 2 seasons ("The Making of..." was written before the 3rd season was produced).

I always saw Roddenberry as more the 'big ideas' guy, who needed others to actually put his ideas into actual practice. In those early days he also had a knack for finding the right people to make it happen.

I find he was much more on the ball in those days.

I think where some criticism came in was later, when he seemed to become obsessed with his creation and his control over it. He wasn't content with being the creator of an ongoing, popular franchise. He even got a 2nd wind with TNG, though it did better when he wasn't part of the day to day production anymore.

And his personal failings are pretty well documented.

I don't idolize Roddenberry. But you can acknowledge his failings as a human being while acknowledging his creative ability at the same time. In a was Star Trek was an ideal that even he himself couldn't live up to.
 
One word (or a thousand, depending on your POV) about Teh Visionz!:
pfyuTB4.jpg
 
He did what he did for basically the same reasons most people do what they do:
1 To get that money.
2 To get laid.
3 Because it seemed like a good idea at the time.

It just so happened that he had a particularly good idea that came along at the right time in the right sociopolitical climate for it to succeed, and he managed to surround himself with (exploit if you're being less generous) people who could take that idea and do things with it.

He's not a God or a Superhero. Nor is he a Devil or a Villain. He's just some dude from mid-20th Century Earth, with the positives and negatives that carries with it. So what some people see as "slams," I see as "correcting a previously hopelessly biased narrative in favor of reality."

Kind of how now people realize that Columbus was a real asshole. That's not slamming Columbus, that's the truth. Maybe not by the standards of his time (like Roddenberry, the mythic man came much later) but certainly by ours.

(Actually there's probably considerably less to admire about Columbus than there is about Roddenberry, so even that's an unfair comparison.)
 
Gene rewrote many scripts for TOS and no one seems to complain but everyone complains about similar behavior in TNG (over which he was promised complete control).
The issue on TNG was never the fact that Roddenberry was re-writing scripts. That is a showrunner's right which many (as in most if not all) engage in. The issue on TNG was that Roddenberry was handing scripts over to his lawyer and having him re-write them. Since his lawyer was not a professional writer or registered with the WGA, this was a massive violation of the rules never mind insulting to the actual writers having their scripts done over by someone with no scriptwriting experience but still required to have their name on the script. That's what got everyone complaining.

Although, it really was Roddenberry himself who, upon hearing a story pitch about a planet subjected to harsh authoritarian rule kept on requesting on inserting "gay orgies" into the story resulting in the episode now known as Justice.
 
I push back on the whole Gene's Vision as a smokescreen to declare this or that iteration of Star Trek as non-canon by trolls and haters. I've seen Trek Nation by his son and "The Forgotten Rodenberry" articles on Trekmovie to know he was a...man of contrasts to put it nicely.

The damning even device that he was the man who raped Grace Lee Whitney probably has something to do with it.
Damn, really!? I remember reading a summary of Whitney autobiography that implied like a backstage worker did it, like a member of the art department (I always worried it might have been Matt Jefferies). I've also heard it might been an NBC executive.
 
The damning even device that he was the man who raped Grace Lee Whitney probably has something to do with it.

He created Star Trek, but he was also a man who was a womanizer, drunk, drug addicted, took credit/royalties for other people's work.

I am very thankful he created Star Trek, but he wasn't remotely a good human being. A massive contradiction that fans have to live with.
 
Kind of how now people realize that Columbus was a real asshole. That's not slamming Columbus, that's the truth. Maybe not by the standards of his time (like Roddenberry, the mythic man came much later) but certainly by ours.

(Actually there's probably considerably less to admire about Columbus than there is about Roddenberry, so even that's an unfair comparison.)
Hey, the guy wanted to go where no man has gone before, didn't care who he had to screw over to get there, and successfully sold The Powers That Be a less-than-truthful pitch to make it work. Then he turned around and did it again. Goal: to make loads of money and hang out in the South Seas on islands full of naked women.

And he left a legacy that was discussed for generations and still is. My hat is off to you, sir. Sirs.
 
Conceived it.
Yes (although if you watch the 1956 film FORBIDDEN PLANET it's pretty obvious where GR got the idea from.)

Pitched it.
Yes but unsuccessfully by himself. (And I am talking about the actual pitch not the pilot that was made after the pitch). If not for Herbert Solo It probably would never have been made.

Sold it. Hired team members (e.g. Jeffries) and directed and oversaw them. Oversaw everything re. the making of a fine, short sf film (Cage). Did it again. Oversaw the production company creating a weekly, hard-to-produce sf series. Personally produced half the first season, rewriting many or most of the scripts. Oversaw and supervised S2.

Certainly with key help. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Again if you really look at the history of the production of Star Trek, Herbert Solo was just as instrumental as Gene Roddenberry in getting Star Trek off the ground and getting the first two seasons made and completed successfully . He was more than just 'key help', (the same can be said about Gene L. Coon): but Herb Solo was a studio producer and went on to other projects and had quite a successful TV career even after Star Trek. The same can't really be said of Gene Roddenberry.

He was flawed. But from what I know of men and producers then, I don't gather he was much worse than the average. I could be wrong. I mean a Broadway show from the era has a whole production number, A Secretary Is Not a Toy. Implying that the opposite idea was commonly held and needed rebutting.

Gene Roddenberry seemed a bit more lecherous than most. Not many TV producers were in the habit of casting their mistresses in a lead role of a TV series they were creating, and then doing all they could to find them some sort of role as a recurring character on said series. Or a years later, trying to claim the reason the suits didn't go for it was because they were misogynistic; when the actual evidence pretty much shows that they were fine with having a female lead, as long as said lead have the acting ability to pull it off; and was not involved romantically and sexually with the executive producer of the said series.
 
Gene rewrote many scripts for TOS and no one seems to complain but everyone complains about similar behavior in TNG (over which he was promised complete control). IMO the real question is why promise him complete control and then argue with anything and everything you don't agree with. Why not cancel the show or start your own spin off instead of trying to force Gene to change.
The movies improved without Gene? That's up for debate as most of the movies are bad. Everyone's gold standard is the Wrath of Kahn which IMO isn't bad but also isn't phenomenal either.
Even TNG has only a few really great episodes. TBOBW got everyone hooked but there are a lot of mediocre episodes IMO.
Even now a days the writing of movies and series seems to be "it has be TWOK or it has to be controversial to be star trek
Harlan Ellison complained very loudly about the rewriting process on TOS, so to say that no one complained in the case of TOS is untrue. From https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_City_on_the_Edge_of_Forever_(episode) (with citations):

Ellison was dismayed with the changes Roddenberry and Fontana made to his story, so much so, that he wished his credit to read "written by Cordwainer Bird", a request Roddenberry denied. Though Ellison had the final right to have his pseudonym attached, he claims that Roddenberry made veiled threats that if he did so he would be "blackballed" in the television and motion picture industry. Despite this feud, Roddenberry listed this as one of his top ten favorite episodes in an issue of TV Guide celebrating the 25th anniversary of Star Trek. In his own defense, Ellison stated he had no real problem with D.C. Fontana rewriting him, but rather with the extent and number of unpaid rewrites the studio and network got out of him, to say nothing of exaggeration-prone Gene Roddenberry telling fans that Ellison's script showed "Scotty selling drugs" (the script did not feature Scott at all). (Star Trek: Four Generations)

Roddenberry apparently denied Ellison's pseudonym request because he knew everyone in the science fiction community was aware that the "Cordwainer Bird" credit was Ellison's way of signaling his dissatisfaction with the way production people treated what he wrote. It would have meant that Star Trek was no different than all the other "science fiction" shows in mistreating quality writers, and could have resulted in prose science fiction writers avoiding contributing to the program. (Inside Star Trek: The Real Story)​

Additional recounting from Wikipedia, with citations [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_on_the_Edge_of_Forever#Development_of_the_teleplay]:

[...]

Dorothy Fontana was hired as a new story editor, replacing Carabatsos. She had previously been Roddenberry's secretary and was well aware of the script's problems from reading the previous versions. When she arrived at work for her first day in her new role, Roddenberry gave her a copy of his revision and told her to try rewriting it. She later referred to that day as "walking into a hornets' nest", and the script itself as a "live grenade". Among the changes in her version was the introduction of the drug cordrazine. Ellison specifically criticized this change, as his most recent version of the script called for an alien creature's venom to cause the symptoms in McCoy. He said that "Gene [Roddenberry] preferred having an accomplished surgeon act in such a boneheaded manner that he injects himself with a deadly drug!"[20]

Justman praised Fontana's version, saying that it was the version that was most likely to be shot. But he suggested that it had now lost the "beauty and mystery inherent in the screenplay as Harlan originally wrote it". He said that he felt bad, because if he had not seen Ellison's earlier versions then he would probably have been "thrilled" with Fontana's version. Still unsatisfied with the script, Roddenberry set about rewriting it once more, entitling the result, dated February 1, the final draft.[20] Ellison later called elements of the dialogue in this version "precisely the kind of dopey Utopian bullshit that Roddenberry loved",[21] and added that Roddenberry had "about as much writing ability as the lowest industry hack".[20] However, Shatner later believed that it was actually re-written by Gene L. Coon and only supervised by Roddenberry.[22] Ellison requested via his agent that he be credited on the script only as Cordwainer Bird. In response, Roddenberry threatened to have Ellison blacklisted by the Writers Guild of America, and the writer was eventually convinced to be credited by name. None of the other writers involved in the work chose to seek credit for the script, since they agreed with Roddenberry that it was important for Star Trek to be associated with writers such as Ellison.[23]

[...]

20. Cushman & Osborn 2013, p. 513.
21. Ellison 1996, p. 8.
22. Shatner & Kreski 1993, p. 221.
23. Cushman & Osborn 2013, p. 514.​

From these accounts, it's clear at least that Ellison was unhappy both with the nature of the changes that were made and with the way that Roddenberry mischaracterized the reasons for the changes.

edit - Downthread, @Maurice points out that of the three sources cited in the Wikipedia snippet, only the source by Ellison himself is to be considered reliable. Hopefully, either @Maurice can verify that the bottom line can be reliably confirmed, which is that Ellison did complain about the rewriting process, that he was unhappy with at least some of the changes that were made to "City," and that Ellison was unhappy that Roddenberry publicly mischaracterized the reasons why the changes were made, or @Maurice can clarify otherwise.
 
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Ellison's got changed a LOT, judging by the comic version I read. I think many script changes were dialog-based, to make the characters sound like whom we know. Every show had a story editor to keep the scripts "sounding" similar, didn't they?
Anyway, IMHO, the filmed version of City is tighter and better. No space pirates.
I like Gene's wordiness in S1(a). And the more serious tone over Coon's family/lighthearted tone. And the more use of ancillary crew.
And I think many of you forget the man was "a creative." He'd been writing telelplays for awhile, so $ and sex (the two biggest drivers of everything in human life?) weren't the only motivators. Many of us create because we like creating.
 
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