Gene gets much bad talk around here....

[137th Gebirg]

From LyricsOnDemand:

(Lyrics by Gene Roddenberry*)
Beyond
The rim of the star-light
My love
Is wand'ring in star-flight
I know
He'll find in star-clustered reaches
Love,
Strange love a star woman teaches.
I know
His journey ends never
His star trek
Will go on forever.
But tell him
While he wanders his starry sea
Remember, remember me.

(* Without Courage's knowledge, Roddenberry wrote lyrics to the theme, not in the expectation that they would ever be sung, but in order to claim a 50% share of the music's performance royalties. Although there was never any litigation, Courage later commented that he considered Roddenberry's conduct unethical. Roddenberry was quoted as responding, "Hey, I have to get some money somewhere. I'm sure not gonna get it out of the profits of Star Trek.")

Then there was the whole IDIC medallion thing he made Nimoy wear to get additional merchandising revenue (see my earlier-posted pic on that one).

He really was a turd.

 

[yotsuya]

Gene had many flaws. Many. I disagree with him on many things relating to Star Trek. He was not nice to several people including Franz Joseph. And way too much importance is put on him as the "sole creator" of Star Trek. He couldn't have done it alone. He didn't do it alone. That said, I think without his vision of the future, it just isn't really Star Trek. That vision is what sets Star Trek apart. It isn't all of Star Trek, but it is they key element.

In the beginning, Gene was very much in charge. We got The Cage. NBC rightly called it too cerebral. NBC wanted action. That mix of cerebral and action was the magic recipe for Star Trek. TOS kept that up. Nearly everything that is labeled as Gene's vision can be found in TOS (I just completed my first ever watch-a-thon of the Remastered episodes and I noted that his vision was very present and very much fully formed). D.C. Fontana kept that up for the Animated series. The stories aren't quite as good as TOS, but pretty damn good). Gene was back in control for TMP. Mainly because it was originally a second TV series. He stayed in charge and most of the issues with TMP I think lie with him and Robert Wise seeing that as his 2001. It was again too cerebral. Then Nicholas Meyer actually watched TOS and came up with TWOK. Action was back as well as cerebral and the vision of a better future. Then Gene finally got his second series. And what happened with that? An interesting story by Fontana got some additions from Gene and became a rather slow moving cerebral piece again. As his health declined and Rick Berman took over, the series got better. Until they decided to launch a concurrent series and stole half the writers.

So as I see it, what lies at the core of the best version of Star Trek is that mix of action and the cerebral vision of a better future. A single Star Trek story can make the blood rush with action and make the brain think and still give hope that a better future awaits. Gene did not willingly agree to that recipe, but that is the one that succeeded. So without Gene you have nothing and with him alone you have nothing. His vision is not all there is to Star Trek, but without it it isn't Star Trek.

And I try to separate his personal life from his professional one. Hard because of the affairs he had with women he worked with, but those never seemed to impact the work.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In the beginning, Gene was very much in charge. We got The Cage. NBC rightly called it too cerebral. NBC wanted action.

I've heard that was myth or perhaps "cerebral" was code for something else. Maybe @Harvey or @Maurice can enlighten me. (us?)

 

[Damian]

Here's the thing for me, and how I approach it. One, Trek is far less sacred to me than it was when I was younger.

Trek has (thankfully) evolved beyond his original vision and spread into directions he never would have even conceived back then. The message is sound and the original messenger is dead.

Star Trek has certainly changed. There is a certain essence to all Star Trek that links it all together. I think that humanity continues to try to move forward. We may take a step back but in the long run we move forward in a more positive direction. But each series is still a product of its time. I guess that's part of the charm as well.

Then there was the whole IDIC medallion thing he made Nimoy wear to get additional merchandising revenue (see my earlier-posted pic on that one).

I was kind of bummed when I heard that. I always liked "Is There in Truth No Beauty?", it wasn't until a few years ago I learned about the whole IDIC thing.

I mean, the first time I watched the episode was on video sometime during the late 1980s, so by then the whole merchandising angle I'm sure was long dead. So I never knew about it until I read about somewhere on the internet a few years back.

Still, I try not to let that ruin an otherwise decent episode (at least IMHO).

 

[fireproof78]

I've heard that was myth or perhaps "cerebral" was code for something else. Maybe @Harvey or @Maurice can enlighten me. (us?)

My understanding, from reading Nimoy an Shatner's books, was that "too cerebral" meant the audience would struggle with emotionally connecting with the characters as presented.

I could be wrong so hopefully the two you asked might be able to clarify.

 

[Kor]

I've heard that was myth or perhaps "cerebral" was code for something else. Maybe @Harvey or @Maurice can enlighten me. (us?)

I can't remember where I heard it, but somebody somewhere once suggested that "cerebral" was a roundabout way of saying it dealt a little too much with sexuality. At that point, literary science fiction was already exploring such themes, but maybe execs felt that TV sci-fi for more popular consumption wasn't quite ready for that. But I welcome clarification or correction on that notion.

Kor

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Roddenberry sounded like a bad guy for the most part. Was he evil? As in Adolf Hitler evil?

There's a TON of ground between "is a bad person" and "as evil as Adolf Hitler." If someone has to be as bad as Hitler to be considered a bad person in your book... Well, there's not many people in the world who are going to meet that standard.

Perhaps it was a brief moment of insight. Creating a universe where guys like him no longer existed.

Guys like Roddenberry existed in Trek, but they were James T. Kirk and Jean-Luc Picard, the idealized versions of Roddenberry. They were the wise leaders and deep thinkers that Roddenberry hoped to be in his best moments. Kirk was the charming romantic that Roddenberry thought he was, instead of the creepy sexual harasser he actually was. Picard was the benevolent elder statesman that GR wanted to be perceived as, instead of the fellow who commonly broke his promises and let his lawyer run roughshod over the writing staff at TNG. And Wesley was an idealized version of Roddenberry in his youth (GR's middle name was Wesley).

And I try to separate his personal life from his professional one. Hard because of the affairs he had with women he worked with, but those never seemed to impact the work.

I'd say that his firing Grace Lee Whitney after sexually assaulting her was absolutely affecting the work. As was his casting Nichelle Nichols and Majel Barrett, two women that he'd previously had, or was currently having, affairs with. As was writing out the character of Number One after NBC didn't want GR's mistress in the role. As was casting Andrea Dromm as Yeoman Smith in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" because he was "hoping to score with her."

 

[plynch]

A GREAT many entertainers, writers, composers, etc would have to be chucked down the memory hole if we avoided their work because of their conduct.

For instance, John Lennon and MLK were both anti-LGBTQ, Lennon nastily so to Brian Epstein. Using all sorts of epithets. (And nasty to his wife and Julian, etc.) Does that diminish his body work? Maybe.

Weird I keep defending GR here, because I really believe in conducting oneself honorably. But it was common practice in the music biz for an artist to demand writing credit on a song to snag half the writer's share of the royalties. AND insist it go through a pet publishing firm, to get THAT share of royalties. Elvis did this as standard practice. So GR and lyrics might be rude to us, but not out of line. Business is business after all.

And (btw I think most #metoo cretins get what they deserve) I really think many of us underestimate how normal his sexually using women was (is) by men in power.

Maybe it's because he spun such a positive dream or something, but he was pretty . . . average for a midcentury man. Doesn't make it right, of course. But many, many other producers we should also be castigating, then. Glad I've been seei g Berman called out on this board recently. He sounds.like a pig too.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Braga wasn’t a gem, either, from what I recall, during his marriage to Jeri Ryan. Details elude me, but I think it was ... off.

 

[BillJ]

A GREAT many entertainers, writers, composers, etc would have to be chucked down the memory hole if we avoided their work because of their conduct.

I think part of it comes down to fans trying to reconcile the man with his work and the world he was trying to sell to the public. I’m sure fans of other artists and material have had similar discussions.

 

[XCV330]

Perhaps it was a brief moment of insight. Creating a universe where guys like him no longer existed.

I like that.


Most of the world we live in is built on the foundations of people we wouldn't like. But we live in the now. No matter how much we might want to escape to the future by revelling in products of the past, we are prisoners eternally of the now. But there are amenities. We get to play with the toys of the forsaken dead. They can't take it with them.

I seldom take a bite out of an apple, and think about all the work and labor that went into getting it from seed, water, and sunlight to my shopping bag. Ok, I never do. Maybe I should. But if we think about a show that most of us are a little obsessive about, the bad and the good that went into it, we can learn a bit more, appreciate the final product. Roddenberry was a creep and a jerk. But when I think about it, there's the grim possibility: if I'd been in his shoes with his opportunity, in that time, would I have been much better? Can't say. I hope so.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Weird I keep defending GR here, because I really believe in conducting oneself honorably. But it was common practice in the music biz for an artist to demand writing credit on a song to snag half the writer's share of the royalties. AND insist it go through a pet publishing firm, to get THAT share of royalties. Elvis did this as standard practice. So GR and lyrics might be rude to us, but not out of line. Business is business after all.

Business should not be separate from basic morality.

And (btw I think most #metoo cretins get what they deserve) I really think many of us underestimate how normal his sexually using women was (is) by men in power.

It being common does not make it okay.

Braga wasn’t a gem, either, from what I recall, during his marriage to Jeri Ryan.

Brannon Braga dated Jeri Ryan, but they were never married.

 

[Kraig]

Braga wasn’t a gem, either, from what I recall, during his marriage to Jeri Ryan. Details elude me, but I think it was ... off.

I thought it was her first husband was Jack Ryan who had "bizarre desires" that she wasn't into. I also thought she only dated Braga after her divorce from her first marriage.

When her ex was running for State Senate in Illinois, the Chicago Tribune successfully sued to get the sealed custody papers released in California court. When the custody papers were released, Jack Ryan (R) lost the State Senate seat election in Illinois to a guy named Barack Obama (D).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Brannon Braga dated Jeri Ryan, but they were never married.

It was Ryan's first husband who was the "gem".

 

[Tim Thomason]

I thought it was her first husband was Jack Ryan who had "bizarre desires" that she wasn't into. I also thought she only dated Braga after her divorce from her first marriage.

When her ex was running for State Senate in Illinois, the Chicago Tribune successfully sued to get the sealed custody papers released in California court. When the custody papers were released, Jack Ryan (R) lost the State Senate seat election in Illinois to a guy named Barack Obama (D).

Jack Ryan left the race due to the controversy surrounding the judicial release of court custody documents (which both Jack and Jeri opposed), and Obama's opponent was Alan Keyes, who was all-but assured to lose (and did, by 43 points). It's very possible that Jack Ryan may have won the election if not for having to drop out when the records were released, as some polls had him ahead and it was an open Senate seat formerly held by a Republican (Peter Fitzgerald).

It can be argued that the Chicago Tribune's interest in having the Ryans' divorce and custody records released to the public may have been in part because Jack Ryan was formerly married to a popular television star (Voyager and the just-concluded Boston Public), and that helped fuel media interest in their marriage.

Thus, Star Trek: Voyager helped elect Barack Obama the President of the United States.

 

[TimeTravellingWhale]

Wow, i never heard about any of this before, other than that he always needed to be in charge of anything.

I think we should not let the misconduct of gene roddenberry cast a shadow on the whole franchise.
StarTrek has been made by so many people, be it the directors, writers, cameramen or actors, and everybody has contributed theyr fair share.
This franchise has brought so many people great joy and inspired them, and it will continue to do so, even if gene maybe wasnt a good person.

 

[Kraig]

Jack Ryan left the race due to the controversy surrounding the judicial release of court custody documents (which both Jack and Jeri opposed), and Obama's opponent was Alan Keyes, who was all-but assured to lose (and did, by 43 points). It's very possible that Jack Ryan may have won the election if not for having to drop out when the records were released, as some polls had him ahead and it was an open Senate seat formerly held by a Republican (Peter Fitzgerald).

It can be argued that the Chicago Tribune's interest in having the Ryans' divorce and custody records released to the public may have been in part because Jack Ryan was formerly married to a popular television star (Voyager and the just-concluded Boston Public), and that helped fuel media interest in their marriage.

Thus, Star Trek: Voyager helped elect Barack Obama the President of the United States.

What I was trying to say without so many typed words. My post was the Cliffs notes version.

 

[NCC-73515]

From LyricsOnDemand:

Then there was the whole IDIC medallion thing he made Nimoy wear to get additional merchandising revenue (see my earlier-posted pic on that one).

He really was a turd.

Yeah, who wants Trek merchandise? Everyone trash your collection right now!

 

[BillJ]

Yeah, who wants Trek merchandise? Everyone trash your collection right now!

It wasn't about the merchandise, so much as how it was done. Roddenberry had already pretty much quit on Star Trek, then made them write in the trinket so he could sell it via his Lincoln Enterprises mail-order company.

 

[Silvercrest]

There's a TON of ground between "is a bad person" and "as evil as Adolf Hitler." If someone has to be as bad as Hitler to be considered a bad person in your book... Well, there's not many people in the world who are going to meet that standard.

Actually I suspect there are quite a few. It's just that most of them aren't in power.