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The One Thing You Could Change, TOS Edition...

Perhaps when Noels makes a appearance in a thread you could disengage and seek involvement in a different thread?.
No, because that would be ceding the floor to wolf whistling fanbois who then make this kind of objectification the norm. Remember the "babe of the week" threads that the admins put a stop to? I do. Let's be honest here: the usual goto for many male fans re female characters and the actresses who play them is about their looks. This thread is a little like "but she also has a great personality." :angryrazz:

I know a number of women who find such incessant leering a deterrent to participating in these topics and some forums here. How does that help anyone?
 
No, because that would be ceding the floor to wolf whistling fanbois who then make this kind of objectification the norm. "

Loudly seconded because forum discussions like this often devolve into ad populums. I, as a mostly straight guy, have never enjoyed listening to what turns other straight guy’s cranks, especially in public forums. It is alienating and, frankly, sounds desperate and try hard.
 
Remember the "babe of the week" threads that the admins put a stop to? I

A lot of that can still be seen if you go back far enough into the board archives.

It is interesting sometimes to see how things have changed, some posters are long gone and a few others still around and posting prolifically.
 
1. I'm mildly curious, but not enouvh to sea rch.

2. I don't mind anybody being attracted to someone for whatever. We're biological being s programmed to pass on genes as best we can and looks show health and years of reproduction ahead and whatever, but it just gets old here. It's like the stereotypical nerdboy going gggggosh a gggirl . . . she shore looks purty. Cartoon eyes popping out etc. Ah-oogah!
 
To be fair we only see her suggestion going as far as them snogging in his cabin (not that 60s TV would go much farther). It's Dr. Adams who pushes it into "You're madly in love with Helen, Captain. You'd lie, cheat, steal for her, sacrifice your career, your reputation."
 
I still don’t get it. She mind rapes him into thinking they had sex when they didn’t. She’s awful.
The curious thing is that the 'excuse' for not using Rand was that it brought their feelings too in the open when Rand could have done something humorous, like suggesting she deserved a promotion before Adams stepped in.

It was always in the script that whichever character took the opportunity to try and trap him in a relationship. Was Roddenberry projecting his dislike of commitment to a monogamous relationship on screen? Don't blame the character! It's probably no worse than McGivers or Palamis putting their own feelings about duty in moments of weakness. Women, eh?
 
To be fair we only see her suggestion going as far as them snogging in his cabin (not that 60s TV would go much farther). It's Dr. Adams who pushes it into "You're madly in love with Helen, Captain. You'd lie, cheat, steal for her, sacrifice your career, your reputation."
It's still a weird thing to implant in your captain's mind while on duty investigating a serious thing.
She could have implanted that Kirk spilled a drink at the Christmas Party or thinks Klingons look better in pink ;). Kirk asked for something "harmless" at first, then he asked for "something unusual, an unusual suggestion, something we can both be sure of". But no, instead, she can't resist the chance to live out a fantasy she must be obsessing with at the time. After all, Kirk is one uber hansom and sexy dude, right? Her fantasies clearly started in the transporter room and continued to that moment with the neural neutralizer (...and she's the best (probably the only) psychiatrist with penology experience on the ship. :wtf:)

Why could she be "unprofessional" with her suggestion? I suppose age, inexperience and situation were factors. Noel was 24 years old (Marianna Hill's age the time of filming), fresh out of school (assuming a 8 year doctor program and starting at age 18) and probably on her first job assignment on a starship. Kirk didn't know her at the Christmas Party, their only previous encounter they both shared. That seemed not too long ago, so, I don't think she's been on the ship too long, perhaps a few months. In her brief time on the ship, she didn't experienced supernatural forces or near death and destruction yet, so, things are still "fun" to her. Then she is thrust into her first field mission under Captain Kirk himself no less. In addition, the mission is not supposed to be dangerous, rather everything is kind of fun hanging out with the Captain and meeting a galaxy famous doctor in her own field of study.

Maurice also has a good point that Dr. Adams intervened at this point. Adams must have lurking and listening outside the door for enough time to piece together a plan to control Kirk. I think he planned to fabricate the story that Helen recreated the same condition on herself as with Dr. Van Gelder, so she would need to stay at the Tantalus colony for care; all the while telling brainwashed Kirk that he will kill her if he didn't confirm the situation and leave Tantalus as if nothing is wrong. Then he would brainwash Helen that she wants to stay at Tantalus like the rest of his zombie patients. He would also force Kirk to return Dr. Van Gelder. Of course, unknown to him his plans would fail because wild card Spock was able to mind sift Van Gelder for the truth. If Kirk turned up without Helen and orders them to leave, red flags would be evident, and McCoy and Spock would confine Kirk and mind sift him for the truth. :vulcan:

In conclusion, is "the Noel suggestion of her romance with Kirk" the one thing I could change in TOS? No, this is just not that important compared to other more cringe worthy scenes and bad episodes that needed fixing. Plus, something like it was needed for the plot for Adams to come up with the plan to brainwash Kirk to be madly in love with Helen, so, Shatner can eat up the scenery in the neural neutralizer chair. :whistle:
 
Agreed that it was well cast. But I say Walter Koenig is a much better actor than many give him credit for. For proof, look at his appearances as Bester in BABYLON 5. He was well utilized there, and he brought it every time.

He was good as Bester, however by that time he was a lot more experienced as an actor. When he was in TOS, he was okay but not really great. Of course with loads of lines about how Paradise is just outside St. Petersburg it would have been hard to show him as a great actor no matter how good he was.
 
I thought he was great as Bester, so, yes, it is the writing that gave him stupid stuff to say with a Russian accent that was the problem. "The One Thing You Could Change?", nope. Even with those handicaps, I enjoyed his Chekov during TOS; I thought he was funny as designed and "cute" as designed.
 
So many people have this preposterous notion that the 60s TV censors were so prudish. There were girls in bikinis on lots of shows in the same period, so any TOS miniskirt with their matching danger briefs was fine by the standards of the day.

There seems to have been a ban on female navels on Trek until the second season (1967). One can assume these standards were imposed on other shows as well. https://trekkerscrapbook.com/2019/0...th-nbc-who-won-the-battle-of-the-bellybutton/
 
Regarding female navels, some shows got away with showing them, others didn't. Several online sources suggest the first time a network approved such a thing was for Cher in 1975, which is nonsense. (The Hawaii 5-0 pilot from 1968 features several female navels, as does an episode from The Man From U.N.C.L.E. first aired in 1966!).

Some sources suggest they were prohibited by the NAB Code, but that's not true as of the 1965 edition, which is totally vague about what might be "indecent," presumably to provide the networks wide latitude to interpret as they saw fit.

I suspect female navels were the subject of network negotiation (like a "hell" here and there), but were not completely forbidden in 1960s prime time.
 
No, because that would be ceding the floor to wolf whistling fanbois who then make this kind of objectification the norm. Remember the "babe of the week" threads that the admins put a stop to? I do. Let's be honest here: the usual goto for many male fans re female characters and the actresses who play them is about their looks. This thread is a little like "but she also has a great personality." :angryrazz:

I know a number of women who find such incessant leering a deterrent to participating in these topics and some forums here. How does that help anyone?
She does have a great personality.
 
Who in this thread said that?

Exactly. People who liked Helen Noel have been wildly misrepresented, our actual statements ignored. But when a moderator joins in these attacks, it's over. You've lost.

It's official now: we are all to dislike the Noel character.
 
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Who in this thread said that?
No-one yet but its not like it doesn't happen.
Actually I got nothing against the Helen Noel character. She's very attractive. She's a doctor. She didn't cling onto Kirk to save her. She fought her way out and got the power out so they could escape. Whats wrong with that?
She has an indecently short skirt. But that can be forgiven. I mean Uhura also had a very short skirt on occasion.
My problem is not Noel but whenever shes mentioned on threads I just roll my eyes as 90% of the time its all about how attractive/short skirt she is/has. Not what a great personality she has. Its OK though everyone entitled to like Star Trek in their own way.

I don't think didn't try to date rape Kirk (unlike Chapel in the Mudd's Passion animation episode). Kirk made her think of some scenario in 5 seconds and she didn't actually believe that the machine was so powerful. When she realised what was happening she quickly tried to back out.

I would have liked to change the episode so Noel she changed her mind about Kirk in the end. That when he was all lovey-dovey and clinging to her under the power of Adam's machine, it put her off him in a romantic sense. And then she could just be a normal member of the crew and not one of the many women to fall under Kirk's spell.:rolleyes:
 
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