Right before the Enterprise arrived.
Didn't Nero dump him on the planet, Spock gets stuck there decades, and then only when Nero gets out he is forced to watch his planet blow up?
The Undiscovered Country
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Right before the Enterprise arrived.
Didn't Nero dump him on the planet, Spock gets stuck there decades, and then only when Nero gets out he is forced to watch his planet blow up?
No offense, but I'm personally much more interested in talking about TUC than 2009. I like the former and am only so-so on the latter. More importantly, this thread is -- or is supposed to be -- about TUC.
So I'll cut-and-paste my thoughts from two(-ish?) years ago after my last re-watch of the film. To get this back on track.
.
.
.
I saw TUC the day it came out in theaters when I was 12. I had the novel, the comic, and a Star Trek VI T-shirt. The teaser had me pumped. The trailer had me pumped. I couldn't wait to see this.
First of all, this movie felt like an event, as in An Event. As soon as the opening credits appear, we're greeted with a great soundtrack by Cliff Eidelman. Then we have the explosion of Praxis and the USS Excelsior being caught in the ripple shock wave. After seeing all the TOS movies earlier in 1991, this one in particular stood out to me. When I watched it felt like the Star Trek movies were brought into the '90s. Which was a Big Deal because back then everything was all about how "It's the '90s!"
The sentiment the Klingons have with each other after Azetbur and the Federation President speak is dead-on what we’d later see in Discovery. "Attack or be slaves in their world!" Azetbur's response, "War is obsolete as we are in danger of becoming" is the acknowledgment of how their approach must stop. Dying will not preserve their culture. All it will do is ensure it turns into a memory. A self-fulfilling prophecy which she refuses to indulge.
Then there's Kirk. Back in 1991, it seemed too easy to think "Kirk is wrong, he needs to change his attitude about Klingons." Possibly so, but it's a bit more complicated than that. In 1991, the remnants of the Cold War ended and the USSR gave way to Russia and several smaller nations. The cold-conflict that defined the latter-half of the 20th Century was over. The Future seemed exciting. The Future was where the next generation could step in. And Star Trek paralleled this with Star Trek: The Next Generation. TUC showed the first step between how relations between the Federation and the Klingons went from how they were in TOS to how they went in TNG. So back then, the story is heavily tilted toward having Kirk come to embrace the TNG mentality.
In light of DSC and how the Klingons are portrayed there, it's a little bit easier to sympathize with Kirk's resistance toward a future of peace and cooperation with the Klingons. "You don't trust me. I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it."
Moving beyond DSC and into Real Life, we live in such a polarized time that the idea of seeing eye-to-eye with our enemies seems totally foreign. This is in stark contrast to how things were in the early-'90s, as HW Bush's passing away has reminded us as we've looked back to remember him.
Abrupt Shift from what I just typed above: "I can't believe I kissed you." "Must've been your life long ambition!" I love William Shatner as an actor. But wow. That line works on two levels. On another note: it's great that they have Iman, David Bowie's wife, as Martia. And watching Kirk, McCoy, and Martia cross the surface of Rura Penthe was a sight to behold. Hiro Narita's cinematography is masterfully accompanied by Cliff Eidelman's score.
The scene between Spock and Valeris in sickbay. "You have to shoot. If you are logical, you have the shoot." "I do not want to." "What you want is irrelevant. What you've chosen is at hand." Kirk interrupts. And then Spock smacks the phaser out of Valeris' hand with stone cold disappointment in her, and Valeris wishing this was someone else. Anyone else. This scene was raw. Moreso than Picard's explosion at Lily tells him to blow up the ship in First Contact. Why? Because the understated-ness is what makes it so effective. The expressions on Spock's and Valeris' faces speaks volumes.
The mind-meld scene. I can't not weigh in on this. I understand that they were trying to show Spock was trying as hard has he could to find out the location of the Peace Conference but the scene would've worked just as well with the swelling of the music, Spock putting both hands on Valeris instead of just one, and let that do the work until Spock concludes she doesn't know. With the way it's played in the actual film, I have to agree with what's been said elsewhere over the years that, at best, it went too far. And, at worst... Let's not go there. Point is the scene became anguishing beyond what was necessary. If it was intended to be disturbing, then I'm sorry to say it was.
Kind of strange to hear Kirk and Spock talk about how old they've become. William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy were 60. And here I am thinking, "That's going to be my age in 20 years!" Strangely, 60 doesn't seem as "old" to me as it used to. To me, I would still think of it as "middle-aged". 70, 80, 90, that's old. 60? Not so much. That's why the whole "they were getting too old!" argument rings false to me. Especially when Patrick Stewart's age wasn't too much different.
Then there's the rush to the finish. The battle between the Enterprise and the Bird-of-Prey with Excelsior as the cavalry. The battle might seem like nothing today but back in 1991, in the theater it was truly epic and even today is still pulse pounding. Less is more. When the torpedo pierces through the Enterprise's hull, that had more impact to me than anything they did to the Enterprise in Kelvin Films where I felt so desensitized to it all. Note to 21st Century film-makers: tone it down a little. Bizarrely it's more effective when things aren't exploding and going ka-blooey every other second. And the end of the battle when the torpedo hits the Bird-of-Prey and Sulu says "Target that explosion and fire!" never gets old. It was truly cathartic when the Bird-of-Prey meets its end. "To be or not to be."
Following that is the mad-dash to stop the assassination of the Federation President. Which had me on the edge of my seat as Kirk leaped to the rescue and the assassins were stopped. The speech at the end, along with the applause felt earned. I don't care if it was schmaltzy. The crew ended its run of movies standing proud.
I don't care what anyone says. It's no Wrath of Khan, but I love this movie. In 1991, you can bet I was thinking, "Why does this have to be the last one?!" But I had an advantage over other fans. I hadn't seen TOS itself yet. Just the movies. So, for me, it wasn't the last one. I had a whole series to look forward to. And look forward to it I did.
So I'll cut-and-paste my thoughts from two(-ish?) years ago after my last re-watch of the film. To get this back on track.
.
.
.
I saw TUC the day it came out in theaters when I was 12. I had the novel, the comic, and a Star Trek VI T-shirt. The teaser had me pumped. The trailer had me pumped. I couldn't wait to see this.
First of all, this movie felt like an event, as in An Event. As soon as the opening credits appear, we're greeted with a great soundtrack by Cliff Eidelman. Then we have the explosion of Praxis and the USS Excelsior being caught in the ripple shock wave. After seeing all the TOS movies earlier in 1991, this one in particular stood out to me. When I watched it felt like the Star Trek movies were brought into the '90s. Which was a Big Deal because back then everything was all about how "It's the '90s!"
The sentiment the Klingons have with each other after Azetbur and the Federation President speak is dead-on what we’d later see in Discovery. "Attack or be slaves in their world!" Azetbur's response, "War is obsolete as we are in danger of becoming" is the acknowledgment of how their approach must stop. Dying will not preserve their culture. All it will do is ensure it turns into a memory. A self-fulfilling prophecy which she refuses to indulge.
Then there's Kirk. Back in 1991, it seemed too easy to think "Kirk is wrong, he needs to change his attitude about Klingons." Possibly so, but it's a bit more complicated than that. In 1991, the remnants of the Cold War ended and the USSR gave way to Russia and several smaller nations. The cold-conflict that defined the latter-half of the 20th Century was over. The Future seemed exciting. The Future was where the next generation could step in. And Star Trek paralleled this with Star Trek: The Next Generation. TUC showed the first step between how relations between the Federation and the Klingons went from how they were in TOS to how they went in TNG. So back then, the story is heavily tilted toward having Kirk come to embrace the TNG mentality.
In light of DSC and how the Klingons are portrayed there, it's a little bit easier to sympathize with Kirk's resistance toward a future of peace and cooperation with the Klingons. "You don't trust me. I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it."
Moving beyond DSC and into Real Life, we live in such a polarized time that the idea of seeing eye-to-eye with our enemies seems totally foreign. This is in stark contrast to how things were in the early-'90s, as HW Bush's passing away has reminded us as we've looked back to remember him.
Abrupt Shift from what I just typed above: "I can't believe I kissed you." "Must've been your life long ambition!" I love William Shatner as an actor. But wow. That line works on two levels. On another note: it's great that they have Iman, David Bowie's wife, as Martia. And watching Kirk, McCoy, and Martia cross the surface of Rura Penthe was a sight to behold. Hiro Narita's cinematography is masterfully accompanied by Cliff Eidelman's score.
The scene between Spock and Valeris in sickbay. "You have to shoot. If you are logical, you have the shoot." "I do not want to." "What you want is irrelevant. What you've chosen is at hand." Kirk interrupts. And then Spock smacks the phaser out of Valeris' hand with stone cold disappointment in her, and Valeris wishing this was someone else. Anyone else. This scene was raw. Moreso than Picard's explosion at Lily tells him to blow up the ship in First Contact. Why? Because the understated-ness is what makes it so effective. The expressions on Spock's and Valeris' faces speaks volumes.
The mind-meld scene. I can't not weigh in on this. I understand that they were trying to show Spock was trying as hard has he could to find out the location of the Peace Conference but the scene would've worked just as well with the swelling of the music, Spock putting both hands on Valeris instead of just one, and let that do the work until Spock concludes she doesn't know. With the way it's played in the actual film, I have to agree with what's been said elsewhere over the years that, at best, it went too far. And, at worst... Let's not go there. Point is the scene became anguishing beyond what was necessary. If it was intended to be disturbing, then I'm sorry to say it was.
Kind of strange to hear Kirk and Spock talk about how old they've become. William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy were 60. And here I am thinking, "That's going to be my age in 20 years!" Strangely, 60 doesn't seem as "old" to me as it used to. To me, I would still think of it as "middle-aged". 70, 80, 90, that's old. 60? Not so much. That's why the whole "they were getting too old!" argument rings false to me. Especially when Patrick Stewart's age wasn't too much different.
Then there's the rush to the finish. The battle between the Enterprise and the Bird-of-Prey with Excelsior as the cavalry. The battle might seem like nothing today but back in 1991, in the theater it was truly epic and even today is still pulse pounding. Less is more. When the torpedo pierces through the Enterprise's hull, that had more impact to me than anything they did to the Enterprise in Kelvin Films where I felt so desensitized to it all. Note to 21st Century film-makers: tone it down a little. Bizarrely it's more effective when things aren't exploding and going ka-blooey every other second. And the end of the battle when the torpedo hits the Bird-of-Prey and Sulu says "Target that explosion and fire!" never gets old. It was truly cathartic when the Bird-of-Prey meets its end. "To be or not to be."
Following that is the mad-dash to stop the assassination of the Federation President. Which had me on the edge of my seat as Kirk leaped to the rescue and the assassins were stopped. The speech at the end, along with the applause felt earned. I don't care if it was schmaltzy. The crew ended its run of movies standing proud.
I don't care what anyone says. It's no Wrath of Khan, but I love this movie. In 1991, you can bet I was thinking, "Why does this have to be the last one?!" But I had an advantage over other fans. I hadn't seen TOS itself yet. Just the movies. So, for me, it wasn't the last one. I had a whole series to look forward to. And look forward to it I did.
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Re-reading that post of mine from 2018, I can't believe I didn't say anything about the Klingon Courtroom Scene. One of the best scenes in the film. "It is the judgment of this court that without the possibility of reprieve or parole, that you be taken from this place to the dilithium mines on Rura Penthe. There to spend the rest of your natural lives!"
So when did Nero dump him there?
Right before he attacked Vulcan.
Oh right, the timey wimey thing.
Well that means he's had even less time to warn people. Dudes on foot.
Ctrl Alt Bingo.
IIRC, Nero waited for him (on Rura Penthe in the deleted scenes and comics), and then immediately captured him as he emerged from the black hole. Then he dropped him on Delta Vega The 2nd so that he could watch Vulcan getting sucked away.
I usually avoid long posts, but that was so worth it - damn I gotta watch TUC again! And it's not just not WoK, it's better than WoK
100% better.And it's not just not WoK, it's better than WoK
Right. It's completely irrelevant whether Spock had years or days. It's obviously meant to be the latter, even though material was deleted that would have made that clear. The point is, he's aware of an outpost being not far from his present location, and he seemingly does nothing to try and get there. His inaction, as this blog author says, is both senseless and criminal. Yet Spock definitely has survival instincts. He knows how to fend off those wild creatures and can wield fire. So why doesn't he make an attempt to reach the outpost before Kirk arrives? Idiotic plotting seems to be the only real answer.
I'd assume Nero dropped him off nowhere near there and he has been making his way there...
Funny how young Spock does the same with Kirk. Both are conveniently placed a few kilometres from a Starfleet outpost where they can go for help. I suppose it makes more sense in the case of young Spock dumping Kirk. To "toughen him up" or whatever. But it doesn't make much sense on Nero's part stranding Spock there. Unless he is unaware of the outpost. And yes, maybe Spock has been trekking there from a greater distance, but he can't have been placed that far away from it. How would he possibly had the time to get to the cave and be so relatively close by the time Kirk arrives? Delta Vega has comparable gravity to Earth, so it's probably of a similar size. In other words, it's bloody massive, and Spock just happens to be a few miles from a place where he can raise the alarm? Which then brings us back to the original question: why doesn't he raise the alarm?
Why would Nero care if there's an outpost there? He doesn't mind if Spock dies. As for Spock, he was exactly as far away as needed for him to get to said cave in his trek to the base to do just that. I'm no huge fan of the 2009 Star Trek movie by any means, but I'm willing to meet them part way.
For the same reason the Borg waited till they got to Earth and till the Enterprise was there before traveling back in time.
He would care because Spock could potentially make it there and get help -- help for himself and help for the Federation. The very fact that Spock is lodging in a cave near to the outpost suggests that Nero didn't plonk him too far from there. So Nero didn't do his due diligence to see if it was possible for Spock to rescue himself and get the word out as to what Nero was planning next. It's almost like he placed him near there on purpose. And we're still left with the fact that Spock had apparently given up and was toasting
Good for you. But don't foist your standards and presumptions onto others, thank you very much. People look at films differently and come to different conclusions as a result.
How about... That's the place with the best view of Vulcan, which is also why there's a nearby base there, for communications and supply reasons.
But why give Spock that risky advantage? The galactic telephone booth is only a few miles away? On a planet that is clearly of a size comparable to the entire Earth?
and what would he do with the galactic phone booth, please?
why can't the planet (or moon) be smaller and denser than earth?
Call someone and let them know what's about to happen? As we see happen earlier in the film, after Spock is marooned but before he goes to the outpost with Kirk, Starfleet apparently has no clue what the "lightning storm in space" at Vulcan signifies. Even the Vulcans are apparently perplexed. Only Kirk has put two and two together. Only Kirk seems to be able to infer anything. Spock had an opportunity to warn his people and get word out to the Federation in advance. He does nothing.
Because of the laws of physics? It can be smaller and denser, but only to a point, given how planets form and what they're typically made of. For what it's worth, the description on Memory Alpha describes Delta Vega as "slightly smaller than Earth".
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